Patch #21, v1.4.302

No can do, don't own any Highlanders but will use Vics and 3D's etc.

 

I've been playing Adders exclusively since the patch and the damage to legs is insane ... but not from the jumping from the rest of my team running in to me! Really frustrating.

 

Ok, I did some testing with a buddy on Alpine in a private match. I took a Victor, set the armor on the legs to 3 pts (just to determine if the damage scale did increase) and leapt off I9 down to 8 row.

3 armor, 36 internal htps.

I reached -141 ft/s and it ripped those three pts of armor to pieces, set the legs to orange. The same thing happened with the Timber Wolf my pal was using. After that massive leap, it took only 5 jumps to completely leg me using one jet and reaching fall speed of 31-33 ft/s.

Second round of testing was on flat ground, same armor and internal. Repeated jumps took only 11-12 times to completely leg the Timber Wolf. He was able to reach a higher fall speed due to more JJ's so it went a bit faster then the Victor did. This will necessitate poptarts to carry more JJ's and save some power for the landing or wear down their legs. On the flip side, lights also needs to be careful about jumps so they don't crash to earth with too much speed.

Third round I took a Spider with 12 JJ's and jumped from the same mountain, achieved -174/175 ft/s and about the same orange/damage level as the Victor. You definitely take more damage from larger heights/more fall speed.

 

nice testing Lan. Seems i`ve been right about the handicap for Lights. Poor little guys. They will have it harder now to use JJs..

 

While true, I don't think it will work out so badly. Light players don't tend to use their JJ for poptarting, so I bet they incur fall damage infrequently.

I really think they did the Command Console a disservice. you would think that they would make it different from the clan, even just for the flair. Something like a weak TAG like effect maybe? Or include some of the effect that BAP would give vs. ECM. Anything that would be team beneficial, something that actually reflects the name "Command" console.

 

Effects should be largely mitigated by skilled pilots. Lights shouldn't be using that many high elevation jumps to begin with.

 

Not a fan of the new fall damage for lights. Regardless of how careful I am it just feels too extreme and many light pilots in game have agreed. I just think it could be dialed back a hair.

Unlikely that PGI would listen to this so it is more satisfying to post this on a board with no direct effect on the devs than bother typing another bug report that will never be read.

 

Actually there is a real bad side for a light...

Try coming down from a high place like on Alpine Peaks under fire..... even with a shock absorption module my adder's leading leg went red.

Generally I approve of the jump changes but that was silly as I wasnt "dropping" just moving at speed in an angle down the side of the slope...

 

I don't think there's a 'leading leg' mechanic, it sounds like you got shot. As for jumping off Alpine Peaks under fire, sure, now you get punished for playing like a madman. Play like less of a madman or eat the damage, problem solved.

 

But... if I can't be like this, why would I play?

 

I have always been a fan of physics, this will be balanced no doubt. Scout mechs should handle terrain a lot better then other mechs, time and trial will tell I suppose.

Overall, I like what happened with 1 jj only.

 

and still, lights shouldnt receive that much fall damage imho

just thinking about 20-35t vs 70t or more, it doesnt make sense quite yet

maybe they want us to use the Shock Absorbance Module on lights

 

I was speaking metaphorically I was actually relocating to take a run at the 2 mechs guarding their base as they'd stopped the clock with the barest sliver remaining. Went over the top of the massive hill near the radio tower and was working my way down the hill. No fire was incoming yet as they hadn't seen me. The hill down is so steep I guess that it treats it as a fall even though you're in full control. Killed two but they managed to get 2 more back including an almost untouched warhawk. Died with 4 of our 6 kills as I'd taken out their 1S LRM batteries earlier....

The "falling" damage was still retarded.

 

[size=8pt]Been thinking past couple days on how to say this, and it doesn't matter how I say it, cuz it's the truth... so here it is:

Fall damage is great, but the only reason it's been buffed to such extreme levels is because of the power of poptarting.

In other words, they nerfed a mechanic in the game that many players have successfully incorporated into their playstyles and technical repetoire, and PGI, out of a concern for balance and a desire for variety (justifiably so), has decided that they have no intuitive solution, and thus have to straight up nerf it. All that does is punish players for playing the game effectively, and PGI has literally nothing they can add to the game in order to coax players to use other tactics and refine them to the point where they are as effective.

It says that PGI has no real solution for the OP nature of poptarting in their game, they have no palatable way of encouraging their players to develop other tactics to counter tarting, and that a hand of god nerf to the actual mechanic is the only way to change things. PGI has nothing they can add to their game to make this situation better - lol. I rarely respect game designers for deciding that punishing smart players is better than finding a solution that everyone will be able to enjoy. Poptarting isn't broken, it's everything else... cuz everything else, more or less, sucks.

Such a decision is inherently negative. Fuck that.

It's pathetic, actually, from a game design standpoint.

 

Well Soy, I see where you are coming from and understand the logic.

I don't think it was their only option to address the "OP nature of poptarting", but it certainly does effect it. IMO it was the right move to promote players to be conscious of their jump jet use and fall heights.

I've run plenty of role play games as a Game Master (GM) and have had to bring in the "Hand of God" to correct issues with player decisions and the attempt to abuse game mechanics. Usually, in a role play games, the use of the "Hand of God" is because of two things: the game design and player abuse. This is where the GMr comes in and uses the "Hand of God" to alter game design to prevent player abuse of game mechanics. The game might allow something to be done that players typically take advantage of, but the GM can control this mechanic in order to create the game that he/she envisions and to promote a fair and balanced game. DnD is an example of a game with MANY design flaws that players can take advantage of and will try to do so, then it's the GM's prerogative to say "um....no...this is how it works in that case" and create a compromise that is fair and balanced.

In MWO it is just like any game. Players will abuse game mechanics to achieve the best performance possible. Yes I said ABUSE. It is abuse just like taking a bag of holding and making an anti-matter bomb in DnD. I don't expect you to know what that means, but to a lesser extent you are capitalizing on a game mechanic that exists and allows you to perform a certain action to your advantage. I'm not saying it doesn't take skill or tactics to use Poptarts in MWO, it certainly does, but it is still abusing a game mechanic in a way that the developers ( the GMs ) did not fully intend to work that way. Perhaps they did or don't care, but the vocal majority didn't like the mechanic working the way it did, so the developers wanted to use their prerogative, the "Hand of God", to make a compromise. I understand that this can never be avoided, players will always find the most effective build that covers the widest range of situation to maximize damage and minimize return damage. Through tactics, weapon choice, and mech choice it will ALWAYS exist. But game mechanics can be balanced to widen the range of effective options. (both good and bad thing if you read on)

I'm happy that people delve into the game as much as possible with a competitive mindset, but this game deserves more variety. As you said, "justifiably so".

When I promote fair role play games as a GM, i'm not punishing people for "playing the game effectively". I'm punishing players for abusing a game mechanic.

On the other hand, I've seen a lot of table top games (inherently random due to dice probability) remove tactical element and become purely "the luck of the roll". It doesn't matter what decisions you make good or bad, it will all come down to dice rolls. Games like Warhammer 40k are becoming more and more randomized and thought based. What i'm trying to say is, there is a point where doing too much to a game will reduce it to a point-click shooter where it doesn't matter what you take because everything is fair and has the same chance to win regardless of skill-level. I really DON'T want to see this in MWO, but it has already happened to some extent. Specialization give games depth. That's why you have different armies in table top games and different races/classes in role play games that offer unique rules and play-styles. MWO currently lacks a lot of specialization, but it does exist in terms of speed, weapons, armor, etc. Role-warefare can certainly use a lot of work too...

TLR
I agree that, from a game design standpoint, it's pretty shitty to see stuff like this happen. However, I don't disagree with their choice to improve balance with the fall damage change as a "Hand of God" gesture.

 

I respect your opinions and find myself agreeing in principle with a lot of the things you're saying.

I don't want to get pedantic here, but, poptarting is not abuse.

Putting 105 tons on an Atlas would be abuse.

Dropping 4 man into pug match and instantly killing your teammates would be abuse (and grief).

Finding a weapon or item that does not function as intended and exploiting it through builds and gameplay would be abuse. This is not the case for JJs or direct damage burst weapons, they are functioning as intended (perfect meta balance has a subtle fluctuation, not drastic).

At no point whatsoever has poptarting ever been abuse.

There has never been the intention - conscious or not - of anyone playing MWO, to circumvent the intended game design via poptarting. Cuz they're just playing the game the way it was intended.

Abuse is exploiting game mechanics that have unintended consequences. Game design, and programmers, don't have perfect 20/20 hindsight... not all patches assertively address game balance, some are reactionary to the way the community is playing the game, sometimes abusively.

But PGI isn't saying you can't jump and shoot. So it's clearly their intention that poptarting is possible. So, really, the issue is about the discrepancy in power [balance] between other shit in comparison to it. That's where the issue is, and the fall damage deluxe tweak is inherently negative because it doesn't actually encourage anything else or improve anything else, it just shits on something that actually works (and well).

PGI intended for you to be able to jump and shoot your guns, at the same time if you so choose. End of discussion as far as 'abuse' is concerned.

 

Difference of opinion is all. I agree with everything you just said based on your view of its use.

I suppose a more accurate description of my view would be "capitalizing on faulty foresight" The developers may have intended for players to "poptart" but they never intended for it to be the single most effective play-style in the game. Now that it most undoubtedly IS the most effective way to play the game, their only option is to steer people away from it by adding/changing the game mechanics, indirectly making other choices better. But it will never disappear and will still remain regardless of what they decided to do.

I think that's a problem we both agree on for sure. These choices are INDIRECTLY making everything else more appealing instead of the developers directly addressing everything else that isn't poptarting.

 

I agree, remember when I said (justifiably so). I'll expand a lil bit on this.

I think you're hitting on something that has more to do with the actual medium of the game.

For example, you could isolate the MM and discuss issues with that which have a lot to do with the meta (and thus harddick minmaxers) you're going to be fighting against; these are the poptart headshoting no scope 420 blazers, yes?

Conversely, could isolate game mode objectives and extrapolate a whole lot of insight on similar shit. Lots of these things combine to give us the unique set of issues that we see in MWO.

What I'm getting at with those 2 examples is that the game already forces meta on you and doesn't have a lot of variety or non-linear decisions outside of the mechlab. Without introducing a new concept or mechanic intended to break up the monotony (more like wielded power) of poptarting, and just nerfing it, that is inherently negative as a game design decision, it's punishing and it says PGI isn't willing to think very hard to find a positive solution. I'm not saying it isn't needed, and I'm not saying it won't be a boon to changing things up in the meta, but I am saying it is negative. And I don't like that from a game design standpoint. I hope it does make the game better, but I doubt it is the best solution.

And of course it's making everything indirectly appealing - but that's really just a semantical response to my comment about 'the nerf itself is inherently negative'.

But what I really want to bake your noodle with, is this:

Does it bother you that a game tries to steer you, when you don't have many options to begin with? Wouldn't you rather them find a way to make other options available, so you could just steer yourself?

 

I was actually addressing this, but close enough.

[quote author=Soy link=topic=7279.msg47997#msg47997 date=1404935705]it's everything else... cuz everything else, more or less, sucks[/quote]

[quote author=Soy link=topic=7279.msg47997#msg47997 date=1404935705]
Does it bother you that a game tries to steer you, when you don't have many options to begin with? Wouldn't you rather them find a way to make other options available, so you could just steer yourself?
[/quote]

Aw... now we get to the milk of the coconut.
I'd have to answer that as: Yes, it naturally bothers me that my freedom of choice is taken away indirectly, BUT I can relate and understand why I am being steered at least. The developers making a change is out of my control, all I can do is adapt to the change. In the case of Fall Damage, I still have the freedom to choose a poptart over anything else, but now the change might have opened the doors to other play-styles and opportunities that were not as attractive as they were prior. Wouldn't that give me more options to play the game?

I guess, overall I don't mind being steered and seeing where the developers take the game as long as the are trying new avenues. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. I'm not going to complain too much because I'd like to see what these changes do to the game including any collateral effects to other builds and play-styles. It keeps me on my toes and constantly thinking of how I should play the game, what builds to try, how to pilot my mech, what to be conscious of. TBH i'm more happy now with the game than ever before, but that is entirely personal.

 

...or, you can just try not to be big-dick tryhards that group up and beat up on plebes (or reach a level of skill such that you can even beat up on very very good players regularly) and run builds you find more fun and take more solo efforts.

I hate to say the above, because I feel players should be free to play the game any way they choose (poptart, 4+ group of similarly highly skilled lancemates, whatever). Everything that's been said about having 'alternate' builds be as effective is a great concept. But, when you start bitching about 'meta' and having to bring that just to complete... a more simple solution compared to the morons at PGI and coming up with balanced playstyles would be - maybe you shouldn't 'compete' as much.

I'm sure most really good players have alt accounts where they'll run stuff that isn't minmax - why is that? I have to imagine it's because they want a change of pace from running tier 1 mechs or being a 'known' name and get focused if they're not in the deathsquad lance/group. Seems to me, all those people would be better off running under their main account

I am far far from good enough to be in that master-class level now, but that is a personal choice I made a long time ago. Just because you want to win and play smart doesn't mean you have to play bitch mechs (which let's be honest, still takes skill to run well).

PGI's fault for making it that way, your fault for running that way. (edit: and by your, I don't mean any specific person, just a player in general.)