JM6-S The Hoser (1x UAC5, 1x AC5, 2x AC2, XL255)

True, your build has 1ton more Bullets. That's why it's superior. That's also why all Builds with Ammo for 1500+ Damage are always better than any other build with lower ammo. Your argument is totally valid.

Of course, they exist. So what's your point? That cool shots are only usable on your build?

well, as you can see in my second scoreboard, i did 799 Damage and i didn't kill a single Mech. Only doing 210 Damage in 15 seconds doesn't mean that you can kill anything. If you have bad luck and your targets are skilled in movements, your Damage is simply spread. That's why having more sustained DPS is important.

The UAC5 is not bad. I'm still running the Chainsaw Build on Jager and Ilya. 20% Jamchance is simply too high. Make it 15% and it's indeed superior to the AC5. Now it's on par with the AC5. You can argument over the Doublefire making you have a best DPS around 4 if you continuously can Doubletap, but having a Jam over 5 seconds, sometimes directly in the first shots is unreliable for having sustained battles. If you start a Poll, you'll see what the majority of the community thinks is better.

If you still think that the UAC5 is so much more powerful than the "crap" AC5, read this:

Source: http://mwo.gamepedia.com/Ultra_Autocannon_5

3% more plain DPS but with the risk of unstable firerate. PGI simply made it on par with the AC5, but with 1ton more Weight. This is fact. Period. If you still prefer the UAC5, ok it's your personal choice. But don't tell us all, that it's soo much more powerful. If it jams with less Chance, let's say 15%, i would say, UAC5 is superior, but not with the recent meta. Sorry.


Synopsis:

You simply can't accept the fact, that your build is not really superior than the "crap" 3+1 Build. You simply argument about 1ton less Ammo, but you forget that most games will end before you can hit 1K Damage respectively you can't use up your Ammo completely. So that extra ton of Ammo is a good Bonus if you ever can use fire till the last Bullet, but generally evaluated it's only a nice to have. You always trade something for your Ammo. And in your case it's already pointed out - Cool Efficiency aka sDPS & different Projectile Speed plus the more difficult usage of the UAC5 plus the more Risk of Ammo Explosion.

As a Ballistic Expert as you give us the impression, you should know how much Punch three AC5s give. That's literally an AC15 firing every 1.5 second with very low Heatproduction. Add in the single AC2 and you know how brutal that is. It's absolutely not crap. Sub7 has tested it and I have tested it. But i don't think you have tested it yourself. If your teammates have stripped off Armor already you can kill a lot faster with 15+ Pinpoint-Damage than mixing AC2s, AC5 and UAC5 with different projectile speeds. This is fact. The Ammo.Matter is simply the Tradeoff. Your Build can't kill at similar Speed, but it has more Ammo for the game. That's the Tradeoff. Accept it.

If you think, i'm here to disgrace you and to tell your build is crap - you are wrong. In Contrary to you! I'm just discussing with you about Tradeoffs. You instead simply insist on telling that the 3+1 build is crap and your build is the gold standard.

This is my last word to this discussion. I don't want to change your belief. I just told you my point of view. Accept it or leave it. If you keep on reacting like this, whenever you post a new build, I won't tell you any suggestions or Feedback anymore. If your build is sooo superior, People here will rate it with 5 Stars. If not, then you might think about why.

Wish you a happy new Year, dude.


EDIT: your proposed 2x + 2x Mix is what i have suggested myself in a post earlier, which Michael deleted. So it's not something new to me. It's the classic Stockloadout without Backuplasers - not bad, and something i prefer over the single UAC5, because of 1ton lighter. It's something inbetween your Mix an my 3+1 Suggestion. I would say it's equally good.

To compare your build's DPS Power with mine you can simply drop either an AC2 in each build or an AC5 in each build and read the DPS, just to see the difference more clearly:



vs



OR



vs


(aka vedrfolnir which is proven a consistent 1K-Breaker)

Now tell me, which DPS Rawpower is better? Tell me. Your build doing more Damage in the same time? Maybe if you are lucky and don't get an early Jam. Yes, then maybe yes. Your UAC5 can maybe shoot 15 more bullets in average than a single AC5, but you have to compare the complete Weaponloadout, not only one single Cannon vs one single Cannon. Show me Facts, show me Maths, or you are just making false assumptions in your imagination.

Now pls stop this debate, it doesn't make sense for me to discuss with someone, who doesn't care about the maths, the meta and the general consensus of Tradeoffs. GL with your builds.

Last comparison to see the difference between yours build and the 3+1 by simply taking away one AC5 and one AC2:

Your Mix reduced:


My build reduced:



Do you think UAC5+AC2 is so much more powerful than 2x AC5?

If you replace 1ton for Heatsink:



If you replace 2tons for Heatsinks:

 

Lower dps, lower burst build kills faster.

Thats your conclusion.

Maybe you are not willing to see what is put plainly in fornt of your face.

If the UAC 5 Always uses more bullets(~15,) how can it put out less damage?

It can't(~75dmg more on average... real world results.)

If my build does more dps, and the first alpha isn't enough to kill it, how does yours kills faster?

It can't.

If your Build runs out of ammo at 800 damage, how will you ever break a 1k game?

You have to be extremely lucky.

Does my build get 1k Reliably?

It does.

Did I not offer alternatives that did better dps than yours with the same cooling and 20s time to overheat?

I did.


Is this debate over?

It is.


I think your stuck in a teacher student mind-set that makes you refuse the idea that I might, just MIGHT, actually be right?

And its not calling something crap to say one thing is better.

 

Let me explain this clearly:

3ac5 + 1 ac2 weighs 2 tons more than Hoser's weapon load outs.

This means you either have 2 tons less ammo OR I have 1-2 more heat sinks. It's a choice that clearly puts the hoser as better damage for the full 30 seconds.

How? So, If you wanted my hoser build to have as low of ammo as the 3 ac5, 1ac2 you drop it down to your 2 tons less ammo(or armor whatever you do to yours to fit it a ton of ammo) load out and add 2 heat sinks and its better than yours even past 20 seconds.

There, all your time- wasted.

Honestly though I know better. I run out of ammo at 600 damage all the time even with my ammo load out- yours with 300 dmg less would have even worse issues. And Cool shot 9x9 is more than sufficient for the maybe 1 firefight a game you get into longer than 20 seconds even if you keep my higher ammo load out and dont change it for the heat sinks.

Also I'm not sure if you included this but- If the UAC5 is jamming every 5th shot then it should also be firing every .5 seconds.

That aside, nice attempt at data representation. It ignores things like ammo/armor load out effecting max possible damage output(which you note later,) but still represents the true hoser build in a more favorable light than I thought you would despite the stated and assumed intended Biases.


Would you agree that all things being equal(which they are not) but all things equal wouldn't the higher ammo load out be the better option?

And if so, and the builds are soo similar in dps, how is there any conclusion besides that the hoser or 2ac5/2ac2 variant is better? It just seems odd to claim even when you don't catch up in damage till 275 dmg output at which point an improved coolshot 9 cancels the heat argument in case you needed to burp 500 damage for some reason. The separation in the first 4 seconds shows mine is indeed burstier- the next 11 seconds show mine is indeed more dps. Then it becomes a question about improved coolshot 9x9. But It doesn't have to because if I lower the ammo load out to what the 3ac5 build carries and trade it for heat sinks-- ITS BETTER EVEN PAST 20 SECONDS.

So again, the heat argument has to be placed aside- lower my load out 2 tons like you do to fit the 3ac5 1ac2 build and add 2 heat sinks and its better across the entire graph(even excluding double tap uac5's which if included I think would show a larger spike early at .5 seconds- though you do admit that real world situation Hoser would put out higher dps than displayed so meh I don't know if you're honestly trying to make an argument after stating that or not...) I know that it is less viable so I don't do it, but if that's your only argument and you love lower armor and ammo, I can cancel it out just by lowering my ammo/armor load out to the difference in weight between the armaments(2 tons) and replacing the 2 tons with heat sinks. You could even make the UAC5 an AC5 and have 3 heat sinks... its a completely mute point to have higher heat efficiency with less ammo- I can just trade the ammo for heat efficiency if you thinks its acceptable for other builds and your only standing argument is gone.

Still, effort appreciated.

 

Trounce & Sub7, both builds are almost equal, but for sustained fights, especially on hot maps, the 3+1 build is practically more viable with almost same damage output at the end on the scoreboard. Even with that 1ton more of AC2 bullets, which won't really save your day. You only theoretically can dish out more damage because you could shoot more away - theoretically. But you don't see that 9th ton of ammo can totally screw your day. Even the 8th ton in the 3+1 Build is very risky enough. Theoretically you have 7 "safe" slots for ammo (Head, Legs, CT). Every extra ton is too much. That's why all these Heavy multiple Ballistic builds are broken, not balanced and not competitive. For fun matters against low Elo players they are fun and OP. Against high Elos, who know how to deal with Ammo.Heavy builds, it's absolutely cheese.

But to let you see why i still don't believe in the Superiority of the "Hoser" build over the 3+1 against all mentioned ammo+, higher burst & cool shot arguments:

Equivalence-Reduction Method: Take equivalent weapons out in both builds x = build A, y = build B and compare the maximal reduced equivalent loadouts x', y', where x ~ x' & y ~ y'.


X = (1x UAC5, 1x AC5, 2x AC2), Y = (3x AC5, 1x AC2) | - (1x AC5, 1x AC2)
X'= (1x UAC5, 1x AC2), Y'=(2x AC5)





Assumption: if X is superior to Y, then X' is superior to Y' as well.
[hr]

Comparison of the stats:

sDPS (long time attack power) 5,31 vs 6,67 | X' Y
C.E.: 143% vs 74% | X'

 

It still gets more damage done by 30 seconds.

The discussion is about damage efficacy not the economics of coolshot. On cool maps you won't need cool shot- it's less of an expense than you make it out to be. Either way it remains true that my build with cool shot completely annihilates your build's 30 second window.

Better burst, higher dps, higher ammo load out- Not better. Ok got it. And its not an extra ton of ammo, its an EXTRA 2 tons comparing the weaponry. Thast either 2 tons of ammo/armor/or heat sinks. Either way you need to stop reducing it to "that extra ton of ammo." Thats just Bias talking and I've already addressed it SEVERAL times. It's 2 tons less- no matter how you slice it.

You are the one dragging this out. As far as I'm concerned you done nothing but made my case clearer. Is your crusade to make me say a burstier, better dps, higher ammo load build is worse? Do you honestly think I would logically agree to that just because you put a finishing line after mine over heats while ignoring coolshots and the fact that 20+ second fire fights of pure alpha are maybe once a match occurrences(while yours is worse for the first 20 seconds either way?)

You still gloss over the fact that every firing burst you would not have over heated your doing less dps. It's both an errant and false analysis to analyze damage output after overheat- particularly when there is a way to extend past 30 seconds with cool shot- all while ignoring the superiority of the dps for the 2/3 of the graph till overheat. And at the expense of repeating "bad arguments," you can 1. drop to 3ac5 ammo load out and add 2 heat sinks for you love of running cool or 2. Run an improved coolshot 9x9.

Just because you don't like the contention doesn't make it any less a part of the discussion. I'm not one to argue what is contrary, only what I know is the truth. And the truth is a weapon load out that does more burst and more dps while weighing 2 tons less is better. I think 1.38 cooling on ballistics is perfect, but there is room to adjust that by lowering the ammo load out if you do not.

Either way, I already know the hoser is more effective. We can frame the discussion around ignoring the first 20 seconds, we can frame it around ignoring the uac5's superior ammo spitting(~15 rounds,) we can frame it around pretending there is such thing as "enough ammo(@ a anemic 1200 dmg load out,)" we can ignore the defensive ramifications of 3 guns firing out of sync, ignore that a UAC5 and 2 Ac2's have better max range than an Ac5, deny that coolshot can be a part of the discussion, ignore the convergence superiority, ignore the uac5's superior burst and ignore superior sniping of the ac2's on 1 arm... in discussion.

But in actual gameplay you cannot ignore all those things. They ARE a part of the equation. And they are the reason its a better load out. You can play what you want, but stop trying to prove something wrong that isn't necessarily wrong. You're doing yourself no favors.

 

Well let's leave it with results. I think we are talking about minor tradeoff values here and there not really practically big difference. So why all the effort in wasting so much energy for this discussing about the superiority? If people like it and agree with you they upvote it. Or they play Chainsaw Massacre.

 

My point was the equal similar power of both builds right from the beginning. I asked Tr0unce to try the 3+1 build because of High similarity. He is the one who looked down on the 3+1 build without seeing the power of firing a cool pinpoint AC15 every 1.5s supported by a highspeed AC2. I never said that my build is soo much better. I simply made my points to show that the 3+1 build is not soo much inferior. We are actually talking about peanuts. But Tr0unce makes them look like Coconuts. If you prefer three different AC.gunz with different Projectile speeds, different dps, different mechanics and the option to deal doublefire but at costs of unreliable jams and so losing the one gun which should compensate the lower Strikepower of the AC2, ok GO for it. I myself prefer multiple guns of same type best with high C.E. for easier handling. But that's maybe only me.

 

Because its similar(if not better) performance with 2 tons MORE ammo?

It's really that simple. It is similar and typically better performance with 2 tons more ammo and slightly better burst.

 

Dude your build has 9t Ammo, yeah that means theoretically you could do more damage IF you can survive that long to use up all your ammo. Practically you'll end up by having more deaths by Ammo xplosion. So if 20% of your rounds end up by earlier deaths Do you think the build is really performing better? I don't think you talk about competitive performance. And the initial burst can be slightly better only because of the option of doublefiring. If it jams your burst is gone for some seconds. Is it reliable enough in competitive gaming?

So you are still using pseudo-arguments to call your build better. Dude i play LOL where the (item)builds count much more than in MWO. Many builds which work greatly in low elo tiers, are not viable on higher elo tiers because they only look superior on paper with little bonus here and there but what really counts is effectiveness AND efficiency.

If the Hoser had significantly higher burst without jam, significantly better C.E./DPS, significantly better armor/speed, significantly better balanced weaponloadout (backuplasers), THEN you can say it's performaning better in average. But not with trading slightly more dps and more ammo for having an annoying jam and the even higher risk of ammo xplosion deaths.

If you say 8t of ammo is not enough to break 1K then train your aiming skills. I did 800 Damage in my two testruns and still had around 100 bullets left because the match simply ended before. In most rounds you won't break 1K even if you had 10t of ammo. But the higher risk of ammo xplosion will lead to more deaths in average.

So your pseudo-arguments maybe work in low elo newby tier where All your enemies stand like muppets there and let you burn through your Last ton of bullets. On higher elo you won't. So actually not the ammo count but rather the sustained DPS & reliability of the firepower is important.

Later if PGI finally implement tournament elo tiers competitions you can test your build again compared to the 3+1 build. You will have very very similar scores. Believe me..

 

I average around 700.

I run out of ammo almost every game.

I don't believe elo has actually anything to do with matchmaking so I really don't get the "at higher Elo" argument. Once again, I readily admit that the Jager in general is probably not a competitive mech in a game full of bad asses. No Jager build is, Victor's and Highlanders are more durable and can poptart. But our discussion is a comparison of 2 builds, and most players aren't even 1/2 as good as either of us. So it's fair to actually discuss the pros and cons of these builds inside the game we're actually playing and not some mythical honor combat e-tournament with the 12 best players in the world. It is a bit funny that you mention players standing like muppets with lower elo and yet are so concerned with heat efficiency after 20 seconds of unloading alpha with no drop to cover or loss of sight on the enemy.


If you really want a balance load out and don't mind having 2 tons less of ammo/armor than I do(like the triple ac5 build,) just put on 2 lasers. To me its poppycock, but once again its an empty argument if you are fine with having a 2 ton heavier weapon load out you can just add 2 lasers to my build to make it exactly how you like.


And yes, if you play jagers at all regularly you'll last the round and use all your ammo- and regardless if you find you don't need the ammo you can use the 2 less tons on whatever you prefer: 2 med lasers or 2 heatsinks or armor; depending on what you value more. Personally I take the 2 tons more on ammo and armor but.... In ANY of the configurations it is SUPERIOR to a 2 ton heavier weapon load out with LESS BURST, and LESS DPS.

Have we driven this into the ground enough or shall we continue?

The only reason I responded like I did to the ammo load out on the 3AC5 build is because Vergere claimed "The Build" http://www.mechspecs.com/forum/index.php?topic=5022.0 did not have a high enough ammo count to be considered viable in that thread- with the same ammo load out as the 3 ac5 build. Funnily enough, he's perfectly pleased with that build and has of course band wagon'd on. Still it was meant more as sarcasm in response to the the type of empty criticisms he typically generates.

Of course the 3 Ac5 build isn't absolutely horrid, it's just inferior to this one(better burst, better dps, higher ammo - or heat efficiency- or lasers- or armor; depending on taste.)

 

That shows me that you need to aim better. Honestly if you can only dish out 700 with ammo for 1350 damage while emptying almost every game then you waste almost half of the ammo!! That's pretty bad. How do you fire? In my testruns i hit with 80-90% accuracy because wasting ammo on this build is unforgivable without Backuplasers.

The recent matchmaking System is broken. True. But to claim the real superiority of a build you must review it from the perspective of a high elo player independently of the recent matchmaking-system.

You always talk about those 2 extra tons. The original Hoser only has 1t extra Ammo. From your point of view replacing an AC by a lighter Version + extra stuff like ammo or Heatsinks is always better. Partially true. Depends on the loadout and the tradeoffs. The Hoser actually downgraded one of the three AC5s to a 2t lighter AC2, while upgrading one to an 1t heavier UAC5. Results to 1 free ton for extra ammo, while significantly dropping the C.E. So yes, actually it needs more heatsinks than the extra ammo. But you only have 1t free, but 1 extra heatsink is not enough for a hotter 3,85 HPS AC2 instead a 1,34 HPS AC5, plus the UAC5 produces more heat when doubletab-firing. So in fact you are only talking about the 20s window before OH. Imo you must review the build Not only for the mDPS power.

You can feel the difference in hot maps like Therma, Caustic or Tourmaline. You say you have 20s before OH. But if you reach that heatlevel you wait ages for cooling down. 10 heatsinks are pain to wait, even 11 are not much, so you either are forced to switch to the AC5+UAC5 incl.Jam or using coolshots all the time. While in the 3+1 build you can practically fire AC15 forever, without coolshots (which is a cheat against Non-coolshot using players). So if you count coolshots to the evaluation of builds we don't have to criticize

 

I fire at everything as suppression. It's my defense as much as my offense to poor bullets at someone and force them to cover(which is a nearly always forced areaction so long as I control when the engagement starts with ridge humping, sniping, arriving to a fight already taking place or flanking from elevation or corner peeks.)

10 assists + kills is the norm for a win, 11 is common. I spray everything I can spray and constantly search for "freebee" 6-7 second bursts- and stay on target only if it doesn't target me quickly. i spray while running for cover, crossing terrain from cover, as a reaction to being shot to effect that accuracy as a I get out of their sight- It's only focused dps really when I can sneak into a fight or in other situations where I'm not likely to be targeted(distant short range builds, fleeing mechs, powered down mechs, stuck on a rock mech, shooting directly down at close range where its easy to abuse the elevation to slip out of line of sight.)

You'd have to play with me to understand exactly what I'm doing with it but what I don't do is be in a position where I have to actually fight something face to face. It's still extremely aggressive, but in a more annoying way like a pecking erLlas raven just with much more brutal results.

You can like what you like, and of course I have my reasons to believe what I'm doing is better or I wouldn't be using it. All ya gotta do is sync drop with me a few times to see I actually back up what I'm describing- whether I'm a good player or not is of course subjective: but result numbers are numbers and I keep them big. It's hard to truly flesh out the effectiveness is in text, the best arena for discovering truth is in game. So hit me up, Drop with me- prove me wrong and take a screen shot to post here