Best way to deal damage?

I like both of these ideas. I remember PPCs in MW2 being balls of energy that travelled slow and blew up big. Problem is if they implemented it now, it would probably do 10 damage to each component it hits and all we'd see is DHS and PPCs.

The issue with these is that at long range, you don't fire the AC/2 every half second. I cringe when I see an AC/2 build where the person is sniping and taking 5-10 seconds to line up every shot. "DUDE! GET A GAUSS!" I will yell at my computer screen. If you're only shooting every 5 seconds, why not do 15 damage instead of 2? (Or 4 or 6 if they go double/triple 2s?). Even if you're hitting the target, chances are it's not the same component every hit.

I'm not really sure what the answer is on ballistics, I just know it's a problem when you have weapons with great properties that just don't work very well in practice.

 

Maybe we re-nerf the AC20 by reducing its health back down a bit? It doesn't really makes sense that it is more durable than other ACs, if a major component of a gun is blown up ,the gun should fail, and the big size of the AC20 means that it should be easy to hit major components once exposed. That isn't a real solution to the alpha-pause-alpha mechanic that you are talking about, but it would help balance.

More cockpit shake could also be an answer. I know that 4 AC2s has pretty significant cockpit shake, but if the smaller, more rapid fire ballistics really made it hard to aim, maybe that would make them more useful? Once again, just tossing ideas out there.

Should we post these on the suggestions board?

 

From what I understand, the chance of something getting hit by a critical hit is related to the number of crit slots it takes up, so an AC/20 is 10x more likely to get crit than an AC/2.

Cockpit shake is an idea, although I remember it being nerfed a while back. One thing people hate in a game is loss of control or capability (anyone who's played PvP in WoW or many other MMORPGs and spent literally 3-minutes chain-crowd-controlled will understand this all too well). Maybe instead of cockpit shake, just crosshair shake? Not really sure here.
For AC/2s I think heat needs to be toned down, and for AC/5s the cooldown needs to go down a bit. That still doesn't make them super-desirable, though.

I guess we should post on the oboards. I can't get to them at work, though. One thing to make clear is that the big issue (from my perspective) isn't the boating of weapons in-and-of-itself. It's the fact that with the way the game works, big alpha strikes win out over sustained DPS, and there needs to be enough reason to take AC/2s or UAC/5s over AC/20s and Gauss or MLs over LLs and ER PPCs for those builds to actually be viable.

 

What I was referring to was the fact that the AC20's hitpoints were increased from 10 (every other weapon except the Gauss/ ECM) to 18. It used to get destroyed super quickly when the armor was stripped off. I think it should work like that.

But yeah. Someone who is good are writing this stuff should post on the discussion boards.

 

That doesn't resolve the issue, though. The issue is that a lower-DPS, higher-damage weapon enables you to kill faster by allowing you to shoot and then maneuver to spread out incoming damage, and especially by forcing the enemy to play defensive, thus neutering his ability to be effective with those AC/2s or UAC/5s. While yes, you can sneak up behind someone with the higher DPS weapons and lay into them, the AC/20 is an even better ambusher, because when they realize they're taking damage, they've just taken a massive alpha to the back, instead of a measly pop or two from a light-and-fast weapon.

I gave the dual UAC YLW a try again last night, and on one round managed 500-some damage and maybe a kill, but it is much easier to do decent damage and survive with a bigger engine and an AC/20 (plus, I tend to hit better with the AC/20, and 6 tons of ammo at 140 damage per ton is much better than 5 tons in the UAC at 125 damage per ton).

 

UAC5 needs a bigger platform and healthy number support weapons such as lasers and short range missiles. Dual UAC5 Atlas brawlers do amazingly well because the UAC5's are there to shred armor and add DPS while the medium lasers and especially the 3x SRM6 are the real punch.

You have no punch with dual uac5's I really don't see them as main weapons without more backup. You need 3-4 of them and be a lackluster boat or a big whollop to add every few seconds.

Yen Lo Wang is a centurion and as you pointed out: Centurions are not real brawlers as people seem to play them because of zombie builds.

Wang desperately needs that right arm and you need to be exposed for as little as possible. Rapid fire sustained dps weapons without big alpha backup doesn't mix as well for the Centurion as the big AC20.

It's kind of like those AC2 spiders, bless them.

 

Maybe I'll try out what you say when I get into something that can actually support multiple ballistics well, such as a Cataphract or Atlas...

 

The same thing happened on Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. You had people running around CQB maps with sniper rifles, because it did the most damage. OK, they were using quick scoping, which isn't quite the same issue, but you get my point. You could tool up with the best SMG and you'd be beaten by a guy with a bolt action sniper rifle in a close quarters fight. It was frankly ridiculous, but it made occasionally getting the drop on them all the more satisfying.

Back to MWO. As I've said in my previous post on this thread, I think PPCs need to have their heat profiles increased considerably, but also their cool down times. I have played Mechwarrior 4: Mercenaries a lot and in that particular set of game mechanics, the PPC cool down time was at least double that of a MLas at six seconds. Gauss rifles were either six or eight seconds. I think the way the game is set up at the minute keeps the pace of battle moving. If you're having to wait too long to fire your weapons again, you'll get frustrated and eventually bored and switch to another game.

So what are the magic numbers? Well, I'd be tempted to say that you could safely extend the cool down periods on all the heavier Ballistic (AC20, AC10, LB-10X, Gauss) and Energy weapons (ERLLas, LLas, LPLas) by about 50% and still have an effective and fun set of game mechanics. As for PPCs, I think they should definitely have longer cool down periods than any of the Large Lasers, otherwise you end up with a Sniper weapon that 'reloads' faster than an Assault weapon. Now where have I come across that before......?

 

The difference is in this game, you don't gank someone with MLs and kill them in a half second.

 

I believe the PPCs used to be hotter then were cooled down in the energy weapon heat change. Ultimately I believe if we want to trace the problem back thats where we will end up. I also believe that the PPC needs a bit longer firing rate. I see why it was made as fast as it is so it and the AC10 would have similar DPS. Seeing as how the AC10 weighs more and requires more tonnage to operate than a PPC and how many sinks you would add to compensate, then I believe the PPC should be at least a 3 second cycle (50% longer than now) and have it's heat returned to it's original value. This would give AC10s a slight advantage for their weight with a better ROF. The balance issue then shifts back to ROF versus heat disapprobation over time.

I do have to disagree with the AC20/Gauss scale weapons being slowed down any more. The AC20 already feels like the next shot is waiting on a written invitation to load. It feels likie it takes the auto out of auto cannon.

Perhaps the solution to this is a bit more complex. What if you had the option on how your AC behaved? If I remember correctly this whole one punch pounder concept to the AC is relatively new. In the TT the ACs were much different in the way they were described. Seems like they were a bit different per chassis and application, Mechanically nothing changed.. Just because someone was toting an AC20 didn't mean you had a huge shell flying at you. It's an auto cannon, it could be slinging 5 4 damage shells at you or even 20 1 damage shells. If you could adjust the behavior of the weapon with varying benefits/drawbacks I believe a lot of the balance issues would work themselves out. ACs would have variety and originality. With this set up you could run across a YLW who's AC20 is set up for a 4 round burst of 5 damage. This set up may make the shots (and the heat) spread out over a portion of the weapons cycle. More shells equals faster cycle less punch fewer shells equal more punch slower cycle. The dynamics varying in between. It would give auto cannons a truly AUTO feel. Then you can balance the scale.

 

I dunno. I've seen 8 MLas builds come up and unload on me after I've been in a few rough skirmishes and then...

[video=youtube;RnZ1MN16Yvw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnZ1MN16Yvw[/video]

 

LOL! I ran into a premade earlier this week who all entered the match squawking. A few minutes later when we were cleaning them up I quoted that exact line.

 

Michael, the key point in your post is after you were roughed up a bit. I was also more referring to smaller ML boats.

Untamed, AC/10 should be better DPS than ER PPC, because 1) it requires ammo (which is a safety issue) and 2) it has shorter range.
I'm a little confused what you mean regarding customizing ACs. Are you talking about making them a burst weapon or a scattergun? In the burst weapon scenario, An AC/20 shooting shells of 5-damage four times as fast would basically be a heavy 2xAC/5 on chain fire. In the scattergun, it becomes a less pinpoint option. It doesn't address the core issue that the pinpoint damage is the way to go, because if the option is there for that big thump, people will still take it, because that is most effective.

 

No scattergun because that is an option of the LBX series. In TT rules the LBX had 2 different ammo types. You could choose the shotgun style or regular AC10 style. The LBX was meant to be an over all tech improvement of the AC series.

I mean burst fire. As you change the burst size the amount of ammo per ton would scale accordingly.

 

Since we're talking ML's, it's pretty Stupid 151 kph flying Jenner can mount 6 and alpha for 30 all day long with a mouse button or two and if they get hot run away to cool off.... (Ready for flaming).

Michael I believe it was you in that Cicada on Monday I annoyed the hell out of in my stock Jenner I had never piloted (flown before) as part of Monday Marik Madness? We had to run stock Jenners.

3 ML, 3 SML and stock armor spinning around with entire team shooting at me and I could still just calmly leg you.

/end ML boat rant.

 

I'm still not really seeing how that addresses the issue of pinpoint alpha vs. sustained DPS. It gives people more options to do sustained, but doesn't really make them better.

Like I said, though, maybe I need to try it out on something bigger, but even on my big mechs I find that being able to shoot and then torso twist gives me the advantage over needing constant time-on-target. Have people who have played an Atlas or similar with Dual UAC/5s noticed an improvement over an AC/20? Or is the AC/20 still just as good?

 

I've run both AC20 and dual UAC5's on my highlander and they're both just different playstyles.

With AC20 I couple it with 2 large lasers and 2 streak. I play it like a 60 kph flying Yen Lo Wang with more powerful lasers and added streak. Fire off a shot, quickly torso twist to mitigate return fire and avoid open areas.

On my UAC5 variant I start to engage from alot further away and run with medium lasers and 3 streak. My ballistic and energy swap range roles. From far away I just single fire carefully to plink at them until things get closer and the closer I get the faster I fire. I still torso twist more when I'm shot at but when I swing around at them I find that looking for an opening or the right positioning is more crucial on uac5's. you can't just snap shots off.

Where it makes up for that is when you get a big juicy back of an Atlas infront if you or someone focusing a teammate you can just hold your buttons down and let them rip double fire until they jam the damage will skyrocket.

Its different strategies and styles. You can't expect to play rapid fire dual AC's like a big slow fring heavy cannon. Its DOT vs Burst.

And they definately need a bigger platform than a 50 ton Wang.

 

Mmmm might have been. I was in a few marik league drops Monday night but outside of that I was speed grinding my cicadas. Run out fire a few times and die. Exit grab another cicada and repeat. If you managed to capitalize on that good show!!!

 

You were already legged AND a cicada so I couldn't resist, trust me there was zero skill on my part. Being slightly banged up as you said then destroyed by 6-8 ML boats.

I was just pointing out the stupid ease of flying around and circling a hapless bigger mech and holding down button-1 with all arm lasers focused on one point while looking at my cat.

Maybe I'm trying to steer this entire thread towards my angst against ML boat lights and the lunacy of being able to brawl and circle anything bigger then they.


I rub my hands in anticipation of BAP and Streaks mmmmm