Zelda Dislikes PPCs

I posted this on official forums, but thought I'd also post it here. I dunno, maybe you guys will like it or something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q6-KttEDGI
Available in 1080p

Yes it's a serious video, not a troll. I tried to make statements about my opinions on the balance of the game, the meta, the community, etc... but be warned they're sort of abstract/random. I was also really high when I made this, so.........

I hope you enjoy thanks for watching, leave any comments or criticism if you feel moved to.

ps - here's follow-up

 

Interesting video. I'm not quite sure what the inspiration was but ummm, it was entertaining? I also see the underlying message about PPCs being pretty much THE meta; whether in 3x PPC 3D Jump Snipers or 6 ERPPC Stalkers.

 

Maybe I need to post this on the oboards when I get home, but (barring hit registry, which is the reason I'm not even playing right now), the biggest issue is that this game is ported over from TT, where hits are determined by RNG instead of skill. You can argue that PPC boats don't require skill, but what I mean by it is that where they hit generally isn't random - you point the crosshair and you lead the target, barring hit registry issues it's all on you whether or not you hit the component you were aiming for.

In a game where your AC/20 might hit CT one shot, and then LT next shot, and then RA the shot after that, its high pinpoint damage just means you spread out the damage a bit less than if you're using an AC/2. However, if you can gaurantee a hit CT every shot, it's going to grow in power tremendously. While 2xAC2 is more DPS and less weight, you're more likely to spread out the damage with them, and it is less effective. If all hits were determined by RNG (or if it played like most other video games where you have X health no matter where you're hit) then the AC2s would be amazing and the AC20 would be crap.

I know the thread was about PPCs, but it's like I said in the new Jager thread - right now if a Mech has more than 4 energy hardpoints it's automatically "oh great, Devs are making another PPC boat" and if it has a ballistic then they're catering to Gauss/AC20 spam. These high pinpoint alpha builds reign supreme IMO largely because of the port from TT, where it replaces RNG with skill.

 

Great, nice points from both of you. Tried to touch on that stuff without being anywhere near explicit.

Glad to see you guys got the jest of it, honestly I don't think most people that have made comments so far understood that much about it. Keep the faith, thingsll get better!

 

I've only got some reg but I think I got high enough to understand this and it made me think. Problem is I can come up with these abstract thoughts but my southern monkey paws have problems articulating them into coherent English language, so here goes nothing.

I am definitely tired of the PPC abuse, I have been vocal about it and up until recently I was against nerfing it too heavily and really still am. I believe that the problem comes not from the translation of the combat mechanics from TT to RT but rather the lack of translation/implementation of the setting in which they originate. In TT and even in other Mechwarrior games there were reasons to mount other weapons since these higher tech items were hard to find, very expensive, and a merc would go broke hunting them down and replacing them all the time. Obviously MWO has none of these penalties. No repair costs, when the weapon is destroyed it magically returns, you do not have to hunt down a replacement and then hope you can afford it and still turn a profit from your last mission. Also, you are only ever engagin a finite number of mech enemies. The TT was a full 360 degree battlefield with all sorts of units and circumstances but you still had to maintain your equipment through prolonged engagements (if you have a kick ass group) and this makes attrition a reality. You suddenly have a reason to carry other weapons and not just the best.

The RNG vs skill argument is a moot point and here is why: in TT and especially in the companion Mechwarrior RPG (from which this all originates) you fleshed out your pilot and what he was capable of in this world. Over time and practice their skills would improve. While RNG was still a part of this, the pilots skill level could off set penalties to hit and thus a more experienced pilot could make more experienced shots and a more experienced pilot was one that didn't leave his hit locations up to luck of the dice. You could focus a location and aim just the same as in the real time. The RNG comes in to give the off chance of something happening, but being a consistent good shot was not difficult to achieve for all the same reasons as in MWO. The only real difference is pop tarding where I believe the translation from TT to RT is an abstract ideal based on an abstract technological idea that could be left to interpretation. I believe there are modern analogues that could quell the argument I believe the ultimate results would be difficult to translate into the meta i.e: G forces pushing you in your seat as this huge beast gets rocketed off of the ground, the vibration of the thrusters through the frame (something astronauts often comment on during lift off) all of this would be hard to impose on the player as they are not experiencing them.

Ultimately the problem is poor translation of the universe into the setting in which we play. We have no reasons to mount weapons for other uses or for the war of attrition. We have no repair bills to prevent us from running expensive tech that would eat all of our earnings and make us play harder to win while sustaining less damage. There were no real downsides to using PPCs in the TT, the downside was represented in the upkeep which has no representation in the game.

I don't think I could really squeeze it out me pea brain much better unfortunately.

 

The jest of it? I don't get it. I did not LOL. :huh: Or did you mean gist? Then it makes sense. I r confuzzled!

What the real issue I perceive is, as Skribs mentioned, the lack of random hits.

Pin-point damage each time, every time, ALL the time, will always make sniping prevalent and 'uber'. Like was mentioned in the other threads, why use the shotgun and spread out damage when you can headshot (CT core) with a pinpoint precise weapon?

Still, it does tend to make the game a LOT less fun for me, as well as seemingly non-innovative.

I would even go so far as to say that certain chassis should have (depending upon their intended role) a restriction on the number of a certain weapon that can be mounted on that chassis. This will solve the boating issue (yet still allow it for intended roles), and still make variety be the spice of life... and death on the battlefields.

For example, Stalkers can only mount 3 PPC's, or 2 ER PPC's. K-2 Cats can mount only one of the Gauss rifles or the ER PPC's. Jenners can also mount only 1 of the 'large' caliber (heavy / assault class) weapons, BUT can boat all 6 SLAS or even 4 MLAS and 2 SLAS. The same with the 'specialized' cats... they can mount 2 LRM's and the rest SRM's, or something like that... I dunno... just throwing out ideas.


Make it dependent on reactor output or something. As it is, I just cannot fathom that either:

A) The small (light) Jenner can mount the same fusion reactor with the same output as a heavy or assault class, with the same weight. (does it even FIT in that small itty bitty thing there?!)

OR

B) The weapons, though with the same class and damage, work exactly the same in the light chassis versus the heavy chassis, even though the perceived reactor output for both is VERY different.

This way, there will not be a single boated build (maybe), nor a weapon type so desired that all others pale in comparison. Maybe. h34r:

As it stands, the only way to beat the PPC builds is to build one yourself, and hope you win.

--Netherkat.

 

Nether,
A) It's not so much about the output or the weight (as they are basically saying an engine weighing X tons is capable of Y power, and that translates intuitively). My issue is that if an XL engine takes up space in the side torsi of a light mech, why doesn't it just fit into a little compartment in an Assault? I'm pretty sure an Atlas CT is about as big as an entire Jenner.
B) I assume the limitations on the weapons are based on their capacitors, and not necessarily the reactor that fuels them.

Untamed, that is a fair point, and TBH I've never played tabletop (closest I've come is observing part of a Megamek game that kept disconnecting me). I don't know how the mechanics work exactly (i.e. is torso twisting a thing there?) but I do know that this game favors shooting center-mass with high alphas. I don't think the dev's intended it, and honestly I don't know what the solution would be. Maybe if armor were high enough that people couldn't one-shot enemies (let's say if armor were 10x what it is and ammo holds 10x as much to compensate) then sustained DPS would be a better goal, and you'd have to weigh the defensive attributes of a powerful hit with a long cooldown against the offensive attributes of light, quick, high-DPS builds.

Of course at that point brawling weapons would be all anyone uses because you could close the gap on sniper weapons before they chunk much of your damage, and matches would be an hour long, so maybe something like double values would be better. This is of course thinking off-hand, I haven't done any theorycrafting on it.

 

I would also like to point out that in TT weapons are twice as powerful as PGI doubled the armor amounts of mechs for balance already. So adjusted a PPC would be 20 damage, an AC20 would be 40 ect. There's no reason to boat 6 PPCs when 3 do just as much devastation. Furthermore missiles are a bit more effective IMO and once you adjust everything to be twice as deadly and have more than just a few other mechs to shoot at the stock builds should begin to make more sense to those of you new to the universe.

 

Good discussion, thoughtful input, these are the types of responses I would hope enter experienced or passionate players minds, thanks

 

There's more to it than just the variance there, Untamed. Mechs weren't just designed for anti-mech warfare. From what I understand, several weapons used in-game were for anti-infantry purposes (MGs, SLs, SPLs, and Flamers). That's why these weapons are still pretty much crap in-game despite numerous buffs.

Even so, I think if you halved all armor, 6xPPC boats would be BETTER instead of worse. They could probably 1-shot anything up through the heavies with ease, and most assaults would die pretty quick.

 

Then why are there no boats in canon (EXCEPT missile boats: A-la Archers / Longbows / etc)? Even tangential lore? And even the mentioned boats *typically* did not hold 6x and nothing else.

Admittedly, though, I am not that much an expert on BT canon, and so take my observations with a HUGE grain of salt. I might be horridly thoroughly wrong, and if so told, will accept it wholeheartedly and STFU with due and deserved chastisement received. h34r:

Regardless, I was just trying to throw out some ideas whereby we could 'inject' some variety into the game just so that actively boating high-alpha precision weapons is discouraged / disallowed. You can still mount 2 ERPPC's on the Stalker, for example, and can still snipe and take out Heavies / Assaults that are not using cover... just not instagib them with a 6 ERPPC alpha.

That was sort-of the idea I was going after. I understand sniping is a VERY valid and absolutely necessary tactic, but having that advantage with no drawbacks whatsoever is what gets us into this pickle of a jam where to WIN, this is the easiest method (which we all like... both the winning and the easy! :tongue.

Like I said... was just an idea...

--Netherkat.

 

I think Untamed touched on that earlier.

Ok, how do I put this... a lot of the mechs, from a lore standpoint, make perfect sense because they are either highly specialized for certain roles or operations, or conversely, a lot of them are 'jacks of all trades' that don't want to get exposed and run balanced because they go into a variety of situations, are easy to repair, lots of reasons, etc...

...we are playing a game, the risk vs reward is only more fun, or 5 mins potentially out of the actual fighting. woop-dee-doo. Imagine it was real. Are you really going to boat nothing but PPCs, where a lone elemental can get inside that min range and wreck havoc and poopoo on your superbadass sniper poptart boat? And then think about how many variables there are to account for, and the different types of missions or roles you might need to take part in. Just taking a ppc poptart into all those situations? All that training and investment in that mech for it to be picked apart by a commando inside 90m or some shit? Just... lol.

 

And thats why I am beginning to believe that the only real final solution to balance is to place everything in the setting in which it was meant to be in. I believe I am going to start a new thread to discuss how CW and more of the universe being put in could make this a more enjoyable and balanced game for all.

 

I truly believe in my head and my heart that PGI is trying, in their own way, to push people towards using balanced loadouts and team compositions by virtue of all of the different things being fun AND effective. It's the only way this game will have variety and not be top-loaded min/max FOTM gaming, regardless of how much immersion vibes CW puts out. Obviously that's tough as fuck and going to require a lot of subtle balancing.

 

Here's the followup, the first 3-4 minutes are just fan fiction and then the rest of it is LPL 3D footage.

[video=youtube;0GyM2ZiGeHc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GyM2ZiGeHc[/video]
Available in 1080p

Here's the GIST of it - Victor Steiner-Davion, while pretending to be Francis ranting about MWO, inadvertently sparks the FedCom Civil War when a prank HPG call to his brooding and conspiratorial sister (Katherine "Katrina" Steiner-Davion) quickly ruins her workday productivity at the office. Things escalate pretty quickly.

 

I don't think any weapon balancing will change any of this. It's the way the game is set up, as Untamed Zer0 pointed out, we're fighting just short matches, 15 minutes max before the timer runs out. It's reasonable to load 2x AC20s into my Jager, with merely 35 or 42 rounds of ammo to expend. This will last through the match.

Enter longer fights, and non-ammo weapons make a lot more sense.

Same as with weapons that are designed against threats that do not exist in MWO (e.g. Infantry, Elementals). I think those threats could be added as a consumable, much like UAVs or Artillery strikes: Like a UAV you can kill it, like an Artillery strike it goes down on a designated area. Only it stays and fights until it's destroyed (no timeout like a UAV), so having weapons that CAN target and destroy such units would actually make sense.
In order to promote this, every mech should get an additional module slot that is reserved to consumables only. That way, even the min-maxers who otherwise would ignore consumables in favor of sensor enhancements would carry one.

Nobody will waste his limited weight and space on weapons that are inferior. Making the wepaons less powerful will not change anything at all, as they will be less powerfull for all, and the FOTM builds will just move on to the next min-maxed build.

And at some point, playing too much with weapons power is going to shift the balance in the mech classes.

Like when you take away high alpha and replace it with high DPS weapons, this would mean by default that fast, small mechs gain an additional advantage, because it's much harder to keep that constant damage over time on them rather than on a near-stationary assault.

Bottomline: If you want more diverse builds, give the players a reason to use them.

 

The biggest drawback to high heat weapons in the TT version of the game is the heat.

Heat spikes can be deadly not just because they can shut your mech down, but because of other debilitating effects - movement penalties, shooting penalties, ammunition explosions, even pilot damage.

If there were more severe penalties to riding high heat to balance out all these laser & PPC builds, I imagine you'd start to see more varied weapon loadouts to compensate...

 

Avacado, the problem with that idea is there are some mechs that pretty much require high-heat builds. What is a Hunchback 4P supposed to do? His only option (in fact the only reason for choosing that mech) is to laser boat.

While this is true, it would be much less of an issue if hits would actually register. I hit stationary lights right now and their paperdoll is a lighter shade than what an Assault mech would be with that alpha (despite all projectiles hitting them dead-on). There would be two playstyles - one is more defensive (get the big guns, hit hard, twist away) and one is more offensive (continuously deal sustained damage). It shouldn't be that one is both (get the big guns, rip components off, and then twist away).

The other issue this would fix is it would make mediums with ballistics a lot more powerful. As it is now, while people can make the smaller weapons work, the big debate in ballistics is Gauss vs. AC/20. The LBX is okay, AC/10 is rarely ever used, and the smaller ACs get used in some builds. Usually they're used not for damage, but for assists (Grimm Grinder CN9-A) or annoyance (6 Dakka Jagers). It would be nice to see that these lighter weapons are worth it for the mechs that can't easily sport a bigger weapon.

Obviously, you're right, if they go too far, then the max DPS options will be way better than the pinpoint weapons. However, they shouldn't avoid balancing just because they might overcompensate.

 

High heat does not necessarily equate to all alpha though.

If you're running x8 ML's on that Hunch, then there should be a decision between careful volley fire (say, two groups of 4 fired in intervals) as opposed to all alpha all the time. Currently, there is no trade off...

The idea is to make chain and volley fire the norm instead of alpha striking all day long.

 

I do not think so. Check my "L.C.B." Trebuchet build: It is 77% heat efficient, while the nominal firepower is average at best. However I came to actually like this build: It almost never has a heat issue, but it's dishing out pretty good damage.

There is one other thing, however: Even tho this would probably qualify as a "heat aware" build, it doesn't break with the paradigma: Slap the biggest guns on your mech that you can get away with...