Countering Cheese Builds

Countering Cheese Builds
We here on mechspecs like to min/max our game. That’s why we’re here, right? Well, as with every game, there’s min/maxing, and then there’s selecting option A because it is vastly more powerful than option B. To put it simply, min/maxing is like trying to decide between a short bow and a long bow. Cheese builds are like trying to decide between a musket and an AK-47.

While those who want to use these over-powered builds can get hints at what to use in this thread, I’d like to look more into how to counter these. I don’t pretend to have all the answers, I know there are probably better solutions than what I can post here. That’s why I’m posting it – I want to hear YOUR solutions. I want to hear if you agree with me on certain builds being cheese builds, or if you would have others you suggest. I feel this discussion could make us all much better pilots.

Please note that there are many mechs that have similar builds or playstyles to the builds I list below, but I will try to make it very clear why this build is the cheese build and the others are not. I should also mention that only two builds listed here are overpowered by flawed game design – the ELS and the Poptart. The others are just very powerful mechs, but with specific weaknesses to exploit.

I’m also not trying to say that builds that don’t utilize these mechs, or builds on these mechs different from the cheese build are bad. Sometimes, a little variety is actually a good thing (catches the enemy off guard). However, these builds are generally pretty easy to utilize and very powerful for that ease-of-use.

Cheese Build #1: ECM Lights…with Streaks! (Commando 2D and Raven 3L)
If you’ve been hanging around forums at all (wait, of course you have, you’re on one right now) you know that ECM is the most powerful piece of tech in the game. So why doesn’t that make a cheese build by itself? Because as long as you don’t use SSRMs or LRMs, and you have good communication, ECM doesn’t actually do a whole lot.

Oh, I mentioned ECM blocking SSRMs. Well, if the target does not have ECM coverage, SSRMs are probably the most powerful weapon in the game at the moment. You just have to lock on to the MECH and you’re bound to damage center torso. But, like I said, the big counter to streaks is ECM. Are the wheels turning yet?

Giving ECM and SSRMs to the 2D and 3L is not just giving the best two pieces of tech to these mechs…it’s giving to pieces of tech that complement each other. I’m sure there’s a joke in here about the ECM telling the SSRMs that they have beautiful circuits…anyway, the 2D typically runs with 3 SSRMs and a ML, and the 3L will have 3xML, 2xSSRM2, and BAP (making it even more deadly, as you can’t avoid streaks by shutting down). Both builds can run 140+ after speed tweak, making them hard to hit. This is what makes these two builds more powerful than anything else with ECM or Streaks, and the speed edges out the cheese-factor over the Atlas D-DC.

So how do you deal with these? Aside from the preemptive bring-your-own, you can anticipate that the enemy will have lights and ECM cover and bring weapons that can easily hit legs. Lasers (especially pulse lasers) are very good at this, and while you won’t get the full damage out of it, you can usually get some hits with the LB-X. If you are good at hitting lights with ballistics, the larger weapons (AC/20 or Gauss) will yield better results per hit. The best place to aim is where leg meets center torso, because you spread the damage out between those three hardpoints.

With that said, the best weapon against the ELS (ECM Lights with Streaks) is communication. Their ECM blocks automatic communications, so use teamspeak or even typed in-game chat to warn your teammates and plan a coordinated attack. That raven might run around for a while if you’re peppering it with your 2 medium lasers, but if your LL boat stalker comes to help, that raven might be limping pretty quick; and once they lose a leg it’s pretty much game over.

What can PGI do to make this not a cheese build? Well, that’s actually pretty simple, and they’re taking steps in that direction. Nerfing ECM and SSRMs would certainly help.

Cheese Build #2: The Splatcat (Catapult A1)
Since the SRM nerf and the release of large, open maps, these have gone from the most overpowered mech in the game to…well, just another cheese build. While it isn’t too overpowered anymore, this build is still deadly enough in close-quarters to warrant a spot on my list. The typical splatcat build includes decent speed, jump jets, and 36 SRMs (6 SRM6s)…usually with Artemis.

The current alpha strike of 54 (and old strike of 90) is high by itself, but is much lower than the actual numbers when you factor in splash damage hitting multiple components. Essentially, the splatcat is a very mobile shotgun, capable of ripping mechs to shreds in just a couple of shots…instead of one shot like they used to. Why is this a cheese build and the 4- or 5-SRM6 stalkers are not? It’s a matter of mobility. That stalker is a lot easier to outmaneuver than the Catapult.

How do you deal with these? The best strategy is to shoot off the ears. Once you take off the arms, the A1 is useless, unless it wants to run around capping. Ripping off one arm also reduces its firepower significantly. As with the above, communication is also helpful, as multiple mechs targeting the ears will rip them off pretty quick. If you can, stay out of range, as the missiles do 0 damage beyond 270m.

What can PGI do to make this not a cheese build? Fixing splash damage would actually do wonders, but in all honesty, I think what they’re doing regarding map releases is the best fix. The SRM nerf did less to affect the number of splatcats than the release of Alpine Peaks and later Tourmaline Desert. The build can still do decent on those maps, but it’s much less likely to be at perfect range like it was against mechs in River City.

Cheese Build #3: The Dual Gauss/AC20 Jager (Jagermech, any variant)

There are actually three chassis that can support dual guass, and two that can support dual AC/20. Why does the Jager get the coin here? Because it can do so with an XL engine with high-mounted arms. This lets the Jager use cover more effectively, as well as shoot up and down hills much better than a Catapult K2 with a similar build.

Dual Gauss works very well both at short and long range, and it is very hard to match the pinpoint firepower of dual AC/20. Light mechs that try to circle of death around this mech can do good against bad pilots, but any pilot who is worth half his weight in tin foil will get at least one hit on those lights, which is pretty much all he needs. In addition to this firepower, these mechs are generally not sacrificing armor and/or engine power to the level a K2 is to fit dual AC/20s.

In spite of their firepower, this build still has some weaknesses, which actually made me hesitate to call it a cheese build. The Jagermech has big side torsos, which are pretty easy targets (especially rich targets because they usually have XL engines). The best way to deal with a Jager is to get behind it and/or focus-fire the side torsos down. Doing that usually means a quick death for the Jager pilot.

What can PGI do about this build? Honestly, not much. This build is pretty much the major selling point of the Jagermech. If you don’t take them head-on, they’re actually pretty easy to deal with. But if you take them head-on…ouch.

Cheese Build #4: The Poptart (Cataphract 3D)
Arguably, the Highlander could fit into this category as well, but I’ve only seen this strategy fully utilized with the 3D model of the Cataphract. I’ve also done this on a Trebuchet (and it’s possible with lights), but those mechs just don’t have the firepower the Cataphract does. The poptart build involves using jump jets with 2 ER PPCs and a Gauss rifle (a very powerful sniper combo in its own right) in order to jump up from behind cover, fire, and drop back down.

What makes this a powerful tactic is how much time you spend behind cover. You pop up, aim your shot, and drop back down before most people can get a shot at you. You might get nicked by a couple of lasers, but by the time ballistics reach you, you’re already behind cover, and their LRMs will just hit the side of the hill/building you’re behind. Up close, it lacks knife-range weapons, but good pilots can still lay down the hurt. The 2 ER PPCs might be a little hot, but that Gauss can keep truckin’.

How do you counter this? Well, this is a pretty difficult build to counter, but the best bet is to get in close. While they can use their weapons up close, they are not optimized for brawling. You take away the two biggest advantages the poptart has – cover and range. They will still dish out the damage, but at least up close you have a fighting chance. Remember to utilize cover yourself as you close in. Otherwise you might as well be a WWI soldier running between trenches and praying the machine gun doesn’t get you.

As mentioned above, this is one of two that is vastly overpowered by game mechanics. What can PGI do to fix this? The answer is simple – add cockpit shake (or even crosshair shake) when using jump jets. This will still allow people to poptart up close, and maybe get lucky shots at a distance, but will require the mech to be grounded for stable firing. This would cut down the number of people using this build to effectively poptart snipe at 800m significantly.

Cheese Build #5: The Pepsi 6-Pack (Stalker 3F, 4N, or 5S; Awesome 8Q)
Stalkers of any build have incredible firepower. The 6 PPC build runs hot, it doesn’t do much DPS, and its alpha strike is even less than some laser/missile hybrids. However, 60 damage, instantly on a single spot, is brutal. Stalkers are definitely cheesier than Awesomes, because they can get a better firing position with their arm-mounted weapons.

This build might not seem like much for the reasons above, but I’ve never seen as many mechs turn tail and run as I have with this build. When light mechs get one-shot while moving full-tilt and heavy mechs have their side torso ripped off from a single alpha strike, it makes people turn tail and run. I’ve personally used the overheating as a tactic; using it to hide in the trees while sniping at the red triangles that were brawling just outside the treeline.

In spite of the amazing fun this build can be, and the amount of fear it instills in the enemy, this is actually the least overpowered cheese build, and honestly is only overpowered because so many people don’t know how to counter it. In fact, I’m primarily listing it here so people know the best defense against this build. You see, PPCs have a minimum range of 90m. Some people offset this by using ER PPCs (my 5S build uses 2 ER PPCs and 4 PPCs), but they have significantly higher heat costs. So in addition to the stalker not being very maneuverable, you have a weapon that does poor damage point-blank. If you can close in on a PPC boat, you’ve usually got them on the ropes. I’ve gone up against a stalker armed with 4 regular PPCs only in my Spider 5K with only 4 machine guns…and I out-damaged it.

I don’t think PGI needs to do anything to this build, as it already has a lot working against it. However, I listed it here so you could be aware of this build and its weaknesses, because it is very powerful but also easily countered.

Conclusion
These are the only 5 superpower builds I can really think of. Assault mechs are always powerful, but I can’t think of anything that is more terrifying than a 6 PPC build, especially if you get caught by an alpha strike within the effective range. There are a lot of powerful builds on other mechs, but these builds generally fall into one of three categories – high output builds that require constant time-on-target to effectively deal damage, defensive builds that rely on skill to survive and deal damage over the course of the fight, and less-powerful versions of the cheese builds that aren’t worth mentioning.

Now it’s your turn. Do some of these builds not deserve to be up here? Are there builds I’ve missed that should be on here? Do you have some tactics to deal with these that I didn’t list? I would love the feedback!

 

I heard one idea floated in the forums to handle ECM/SSRMS. If there are any un-countered ECMs in your area, then lock times are increased, even those of the 'mech using ECM.

 

I did find one thing lacking in your write up, you did not discuss the force multiplication of stacking cheese builds.

ECM/SSRMS still win the cheese award, since more streaks and more ECM only exacerbate the issue.

SplatCats, 20-Jagers, and Gaussjagers don't act as good force multipliers. The builds are too specialized.

Poptarts suffer a similar issue. One poptart can be credit to his team, moving, popping up in an unexpected manner and carefully cycling his weapons, one well-piloted poptart can seem like a whole lance of 'mechs. However, when you field an entire lance of poptarts, you take your frontline punch and put it too far in the backfield.

6-packs only become more dangerous in numbers. I've seen this in 8-mans far too many times. 4-6 stalkers, each with 4-6 PPCs keeping in formation around 120m away from one another. The only hard-counter I've seen to this is to stay the hell away from them and go after the capture points.

 

Splat cats can be deadly when in numbers - the team doesn't know which to target. I've seen teams with 3 splat cats have heavy damage on each of their arms, but no arms destroyed, because focus fire just wasn't there.

Groups of poptarts can pin down an enemy much better, especially because as you wait for one to pop back up, the next guy is shooting from a few hundred meters down the ridge.

I will agree, though, that the ECM/SSRM stacking is probably the most overpowered combination in the game.

The suggestion I had for ECM, which didn't get much attention when I posted it on the oboards, was to split the effects into different packages and only allow a mech to have one package installed (and the ability to switch to counter), and have counter deactivate one of EACH.
A unit member suggested that SSRMs function like SRMs with Artemis, except they won't fire unless they know they'll hit (I haven't read the lore, but he said that's how they work in lore). That way they would still need to be aimed, and torso-mounted streaks wouldn't be as agile. Personally, I don't know what the fix is for streaks.

 

My suggestion to the PGI would be to limit ECM in a drop. 2 ECM in an 8 man. 3 in a 12 man. ECM in the battlertech universe wasn't as rampant as it has been in game so providing a limiter would be within the scope of "realism" as far as I am concerned. Don't get me wrong, I've been known to run in 3 and 4 man ECM packs and I love roflstomping people with it BUT for an actual competitive match? Even I draw the line and say "cheeeeeeeeeesie".

 

The issue with that, Michael, is how do they implement it? Do they do it with matchmaking, to limit the number of builds with ECM allowed in? Do they not allow you to have more than 1 ECM in a 4-man drop? I personally think that, while maybe less realistic within the IP, it would be simpler and better balanced to nerf the effects of it and allow more mechs to use it.

The use of cheese groups is why I don't like doing 8-man drops unless it's internal within my unit, because my unit tends to run whatever we want, and we tend to get roflstomped by people using these builds.

 

Well, if BAP did ANYTHING against ECM it would be an increase. Currently BAP is completely nullified if ECM is present. Which is why the only build I plan on using it on...is my 3L.

 

Today, yes. But who knows what can happen once they actually get weight matching and ELO sorted. Eventually they could limit the number of ECM mechs if they really truly wanted to.

For instance...

8 versus 8

Team 1 has 2 mechs with ECM modules installed... PASS
Team 2 has 4 mechs with ECM modules installed... FAIL

Cycle through list to find a matching team for Team 1

(computer crunching time)

Team 2 found. Has 2 mechs with ECM modules installed... PASS

Match Team 1 and Team 2 together.

Drop

If it's a 4 man that has all 4 ECM modules installed? NO DROP (ever) and a notice is sent

"Sorry muthatruckas, you exceed the maximum number of ECM mechs allowed per 4 man team. The max is XYZ"

If it's an 8 man that has 3 ECM modules installed? NO DROP (ever) and a notice is sent

"Bling Bling Cheese Peddlers, you exceed the maximum number of ECM mechs allowed per 8 man team. The max is XYZ"

It really wouldn't be all that complicated. It doesn't matter WHAT chassis the mechs are since you are doing a quick scan looking for equipment flags like ECM.

They could also do this with Splat Cats if they REALLY wanted to although I think Splat Cats are funny... I love seeing guys with 270 meter ranges come after me. I stay 280-300 meters out and back peddle while I rip them apart. Yes, in groups this is more challenging and thus they could limit it that way too.

Sure, people will say "Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa but I want to play the way I want to play"... Fine, add another little check mark like they are going to do with 3rd Person View mode where you can select your type of drop...

No, Stacking/Boating Disallowed
Yes, Stacking/Boating Allowed
I Don't Care / Drop me ASAP

Let's see how Splatcat pilots like playing against nothing but other Splatcat pilots. They can circle around each other till the 2nd Coming of Christ shooting at each other and it will come down to "Who got the first shots off"

 

Honestly, the only stacking that bothers me is ECM stacking, because no matter what strategy you run, it can come down to who has more ECM. The other stacking do get more powerful by exceeding critical mass*, but ECM is sort of the uber tech.

Critical Mass is a term I'm loosely using from Star Craft. In that game, it refers to the number of units required to one-shot another unit with focus fire, for example it takes 7 marines (with a damage of 6) to kill 1 marine in 1 shot (health of 40). Exceeding critical mass by having 10 marines means your enemy needs to kill 4 marines just to bring you below critical mass. It's the same idea in-game. If you have one splat cat, and you blow off one ear, you lower his damage output by 50%. If you have three splat cats, and you blow off one ear, you only reduce their output by 16%.

 

The only "cheese" loadout that makes me mad is the streak.
(and I stop writing right now because all that's coming on my mind disobey the posting etiquette ^^)

The others look legit to me, as long as they're not stacked.
They all requires to aim, they sometimes have major drawback (very close range, vulnerable XL engine, heat,...), etc.

 

I personally don't mind ECM as it stands but I agree with Michael. It would be fantastic if they limit ECM by Lance/Company etc...

I have noticed that there are a lot less people dropping with spammed ECM or Cheeze these days. There are so many choices now, even just within a single chassy; it's more fun to try and eventually master something new.

My Raven RVN-3L; the only way I'll ever get rid of it is when you pry it from my cold dead hands.

Mythweaver.:smile:

 

Myth, you're right. Playing around with different things is fun. A lot of high schoolers have fun racing around in their Dad's beat up Toyota. But people who want to win races have cars that are built specifically for the type of race they are doing.

Yeah, it might be fun to run around on a Raven 4X with an AC/20, but at the end of the day the mech that is going to do a better job at counter-light work than anything (except *maybe* a commando 2D), is going to be just as good as any other light at grabbing objectives (okay, it doesn't have jump jets, but except for a few specific spots, it's not that much of a hindrance in moving from point A to point B), and is going to really punish the heavies in a prolonged assault (which the 2D can't do) is the Raven 3L. Yes, a 6xML Jenner might punish heavies a bit more, but it does so without ECM bubble. When people want fun, they play what they want. When they want to win, they play a COM-2D or Raven-3L. Well, for lights anyway.

 

I noticed the same.
(sure you still encounter that sniper team "playing defence" from time to time, or, worst, those 4 RVNs premade wasting some PUGs, but it's way better than it used to be)

By the way, when we organize 8v8 games with my "team" (

 

My first post after patrolling this very fine forum. I am still new to this only having about 100 pug drops, but I have a helluva time getting the streaks to lock up anyways so choose to just use srm's to decent effect. But I have a simple fix for the ECM/Streak issue, just make them incompatible with with each other. You can mount ECM or you can mount Streaks but not both systems. Is it contrary to lore? Yes. Does it help balance the game? Yes. So what is more important to you in this game, lore or balance? Me, I like balance, if I want lore I have other venues.

 

There is a noted issue with the lock time of SSRMs against certain chassis. I have no details on whether that will be fixed this patch or somewhere down the road.

As for ECM not being compatible with streaks. That is an interesting idea but then what does the Commando do?

Welcome to the forums.

 

SRM4 boat.

Not knowing the lore, I can't say for sure, but I've heard from people who sound like they know what they're talking about (and who are not known to me for blowing smoke) that both SSRMs -and- ECM are more powerful than their lore counterparts. Makes sense that the combination would be uber.

 

I really believe that the limiting of the stacking effect (or get rid of the ability for it to stack entirely) would be the fix to ECM. Perhaps as Michael has stated before maybe no more than 2 ECM per match or just say it doesn't stack. 1 Counter vs 1 Disrupt cancels all out period regardless of the number of ECM present.

 

I started running a D-DC with 3x SSRM2's after missiles were butchered, and I haven't had many problems with ECM lights since.
There was one incident where I was surrounded by three ECM Ravens at once, but that rarely ever happens.
BAP has also helped significantly because you can hold down the fire button as you acquire the lock to get off a shot sooner.

Something that I have noticed helps with poptarts is suppressing fire from an AC/2. It's better if you have a macro to get more shake out of multiple AC/2's, but even just holding it on him really helps.

You won't get him on the first shot, but if you line up with his jumping spot you can shake him up as he ascends (which usually makes him miss his shot), and he'll likely stop poptarting.