August 8th - Weapon Balance update

No it's not.

Ad hominem would be like, say, me calling you're a fucking moron.

Pointing out that anyone referencing logical fallacies is desperately out on a limb is simply a obnoxious and humorous statement. Seeing as the comment wasn't actually directed at anyone specifically, it actually wasn't an attempt to discredit anyone's argument. It was just obnoxious humor.

If you want to argue semantics with me, plox, better be your first language and you better come correct like a scholar. I'm more interested in arguing that than the actual content of this thread, since it's mostly shit we all know and agree about.

Btw, less numbers, more wisdom. Real pimp don't sit around interpreting isolated, skewed, arbitrary data... they shit on newbs.

Good game.

 

Xenophobia?

Is this guy serious?

You think I'm being provincial?

You really are an idiot. Nothing to do with where you're from or what language you speak. You're a moron.

 

Having a single superior build and/or chassis combo which you can't counter with anything else in a game with a lot of choices is bad design. This isn't TT.

Lore-like 10v12 "balanced out" would mean that you either join the team with inferior mechs, which you said nobody should do, or join the team with superior mechs. On one hand you take lore as "the way it should be" in a competetive game, on the other hand you say people should play like competetive players and not use IS mechs.

 

Regarding your first statement... well, that's how the game has been so far, since open beta. So since the beginning, PGI has been behind the proverbial balance 8-ball. Doesn't even need to get to Clantech, eh.

I never said it should be 100% faithful to canon, I also never said players/PGI should give up on lore.

What I've said all along (you're kinda new/lurker, go back and look thru the nearly 2 years of talk about this exact stuff), including in this thread, is that the issue of Clantech, as it has always been in BT/MW, is that it is never balanced in comparison to IS stuff. It never was, it never will be. If it was, what would be the point. It's a philosophical thing. How do you take that and fit it into a game and make it 100% palatable for both sides, I don't know. I've pondered this question for years (really).

If you ask me how it should be in the game, again, for the zillionth time, I say that there are pragmatic ways of analyzing the discrepencies in actual game mechanics that cause imbalance. It's not just tweaking dmg numbers or heat, etc. Think outside of the box. People [PGI for example] gotta step away from the monitor and think critically. There are ways of balancing things like this, everything in a game does not have to be symmetrical. On a deeper level, everything in a game does not have to be fair, either.

How do you make something unfair, palatable. Incentives? Gaudy carrot sticking? Impulse buying of random shit? Consumes? New game modes? All of this stuff touches things other than dmg numbers, heat, etc. PGI, or any MW game, has to find a way to encourage people to use bad, inferior shit. Otherwise, what's the fucking point about 90% of the content besides auxilliary voluntary immersion and/or challenge.

 

I don't really want to jump in this conversation, but I was thinking about Soy's approach of clans being end-game-content or only the best players get access to it if there was a true level/class system in place that you could unlock.

This would obviously never work in today's game because it would dry up a massive revenue stream, but it's hilarious to think about. Can you imagine the bitching of getting your ass handed to you hard by the best players in superior mechs that you don't have access to? I'd provide a counter to that argument and say once you reach a certain level, you have to play the shittiest of shit mechs as part of a 'mech redistribution' theory so 'mechwarriors of all skill levels are treated fairly'

 

Yeah, they should make a "socialist" game mode

 

Wow this here is like following a Daily Soap Opera. Totally Drama!!!

Question here from me: Why always talk about Clan-Tech Nerfing? Why not favoring a bit IS-Tech Buffing instead for Balancing Improvements? (Would be better for Marketing Purpose, but pssssh!)

 

I'd just like to remind everyone that we have a section for heated threads like this. I suggest everyone with a bone to pick take it down there and keep this strictly discussion oriented more than debate oriented.

 

Yep - nice to see someone actually think about what I said critically. I especially like the part at the end about flipping it around, I've mentioned that specifically before. The whole point is as an exercise, it's to get people thinking critically about the game's problems, rather than focusing on whatever arbitrary numbers they saw some night when they dropped in game cuz that shit means jack fucking squat.

The interesting notion is that when you talk about revenue streams and the viability of the product, I honestly believe that 10, 15 years ago, gamers in general would have no problem getting walked on by players in mechs that they cannot access cuz they aren't good enough yet, haven't earned it in game, etc.

Today, I don't see it as a practical business decision for a casual FPS, no. There's been too much dick holding of the consumer over the past decade+, consider MMORPGs, they were originally sandboxes and now they are quests-on-rails. The industry has molded most online gamers into gaping vaginas who want the quickest route to end game so they can burn out, quit and GTFO [sucked their money in during that process]... rather than making the journey an open-ended challenging experience for you. People want games to tell them what to do now rather than the other way around. I mean, shit - this site exists for the reason (among many others) that people don't have the time or care to find meta on their own. Think about it.

The scary notion is that I don't see how the current game is a practical business decision, either.

 

Soy is spot on with game design treating customers like


There were so many video games in grade school that I could never even beat and I was fine with it because I knew I wasn't good enough, especially when I could watch my older brother do it after playing the same boss for a week and putting in the time. Maybe that's why I don't mind getting worked by good players in MWO even though I don't prefer it

To be fair, I don't think companies want an end game as they'd rather string you along with minimal additional content for maximum dollars. The problem is, must like movies, you get sick of the same shit just regurgitated and the vast majority of consumers have time and time again have proven they want a single player campaign to last 10 hours (couldn't find the original source, but here's a similar article: http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/gaming.gadgets/08/17/finishing.videogames.snow/). If they can't be made to look reasonably good in multiplayer some of the time, they're out and then the whole bubble collapses.

 

Word, nice thoughts.

I would say that if they can't find a way to string you along, that indeed they do want you to burn out and GTFO asap. Why? Cuz then less complaints on the forums. It's just business.

For example, lets say you order a pizza from Pizza Hut, and swing by on the way home from work to pick it up. You see the pizza was made incorrectly, and then you promptly tell the manager or whoever. They want to make you another pizza and get you the fuck out of there, asap. They won't try and sell you another pizza or side of breadsticks while you wait, if anything they want you to sit in the corner and drink a free fountain soda and not shout about how all the cooks are retards and how the service is awful. They want you pacified, not bitching, and gone... they have your money already...

 

My last post ever in this thread. Im gonna explain all my points one by one. If u want the stadistics where they are based, just go back in the thread, all is clearly detailed with links to the references.

Intro:

I paid for 5 years, every month, for WAR, but dropped in less than 1 year due to under-population. I really wanted to complete all entries of the Great Book, but no way. Ppl got bored of roflstomps, me included. Also EA took full control of the game, and they ignored the playerbase over and over again. We had told them in like a million threads that the changes they were planning were a complete fail, but they carried on. Subscribers dropped by 50% in the 2months that follow them, to never recover.

I paid 3 more years for SWToR, every month, till the service moved from Bioware to EA, and the playerbase was ignored again. So the game slowly moved more and more to the mini-payment mode, the same we have here in MWO. But honestly, we paid for free-players, and for their works, and what we got was developers working in useless items for decoration, instead of long-time known bugs, and balance that were the things we were asking for. So half my guild decided it was time to pass of the guys passing from them.

In these 2 games i was paying 10-15€/month, so 120-180€/year. Way more than u can get in a GTFO game, and i was happy enough to recommend the game to other persons, for 3.5 years in WAR and for 2.5 in SWToR. All them tried with me in the shoulder, and more than half them liked enough the game to subscribe, without me in the shoulder.

MWO:

Here i will most likely leave the game in the first six months cause i see the company doing the same mistakes i have seen over and over again: Greed without feedback, Long-time problems of balance, Bugs, but specially, Neglected community feedback.

That its easier to find the info here than in the official forum just add insult to injury. PGI needs to learn a lesson with the clans. Trouble is that i fear that the lesson would be granted by under-population. I enjoy this game, but honestly, if they dont balance clanners, im not up to see it dieing slowly.

Future:

I just ask for this: an Atlas should be able to eat more than 2 alphas from a Timber, a mech 25 tons lighter. Whatever thats archieved, i dont care the way it is. But its a simple need. Taking u out of game in 7 seconds in a 1vs1 its not funny and requires 0 skill.

So back to the topic name, the only way to get all that done, that i can see, is nerf a lot clan weapons or upgrade a lot IS weapons (remember they weight more and take more critical slots). Im not up to be creative when i see whr the damn trouble lays. cERLLas are still the best weapon in the game. For 4 tons and 1 critical slot u get the longest range weapon of the game, and costing less heat that the IS one....

In the end:

Name whatever way u want. Weapon rebalance is a FULL NEED. The last balance made nothing but taking the cERLLas out of the hit-and-run specs cuase the increased time, but its far from enough. It should be on pair with some IS weapon.

Or just take off the game the TimberWolf and the DireWolf. They are the mechs that are completely unbalanced. They have too many weapon hardpoints and/or too many free weight to make the payload deadly. They are pissing ppl, and driving them out the game. Why? Cause Sheeps cant fight Wolves and right now, if u are not a Wolf, u are a Sheep

Exact numbers:
Timber has 15 DHSs built in and has 31 slots with 27.46 free tons (max armour) TBR-PRIME
Dire has 15 DHSs built in and has 41 slots with 50.31 free tons (max armour) DWF-PRIME

For comparision, but we know that XL engines in IS mechs means that once u loose one torso u are dead, that clan weapons weight 1 ton less, and take one slot less also:
Orion with XL350, Endo-steel and 15 DHSs has 26 slots and 29.56 free tons (max armour) ON1-K(C)
Atlas with XL350, Endo and 15 DHSs has 24 slots and 45.81 free tons (max armour) AS7-D-DC

 

Aside from Disco's or overheat shutdowns, how many pilots will just stand there and eat a *full* *two* *second* burn from the cERLL.

 

I agree, however, I specifically remember setting fire to your corpse in another game. It's kinda creepy hearing you talk after that.

 

Mor ppl than u think will eat lasers during the whole burn before they actually do something (like moving away and to cover), because they want to see what's firing at them.

[member=4725]Auriga[/member]: You have some valid points, not going to question that. And I think you like the game. Otherwise you wouldn't put so much effort in this thread. But... sometimes you seem to take on a rather radical route. Maybe that's why ppl here are confronting you the way they do.
My opinion on this matter (Nerfing clan weponry or not) is clear as it's yours.... but I don't try to convince everybody that my way is the right way. Think about it, pls.

It's a difficult topic.. it always has been, to translate BattleTech Rules on the PC-Screen. And what can I say.... it could be far worse. I play this game since day one and thus I think I get a wider image of it's evolution (probably like most in this forum). Imho PGI made some huge steps into the right direction lately. Still making some mistakes, but hey, nobody is perfect. They're tryin'. And I must say, I like my day-to-day experience in this game (must be due to my hilarious teammates). We shouldn't forget that PGI had some good calls, not only flaws in the last few months.

Regarding the balance ( to get back to the initial topic):
Clans-Mechs per se, should be OP. When they first appeared in the IS, even the hardboiled veterans wet their pansies. And that's pretty much it. I don't support the idea, that the C-weapons need some nerfing. I'd rather like the idea of tweaking them here and there to match the IS-weaponry, but still leave them with an extra edge. This advantage is crucial, the clans are supposed to drive state-of-the-art machines. Period.

So now it's a bit unfair if two equal teams clash together using IS on one side and Clan on the other.....?
I totally agree with that. I had my share of experience on that matter. But I don't really think the weapons need an overhaul. I'd rather like to see bigger groups of IS against smaller groups of clans... like it's mentioned to be. The the odds would be more balanced, while the clans would keep their cutting edge. Nerfing them seems to me like making the clan machines as good/bad as their IS counterparts.... that doesn't sound right to me.

Not trying to say that's the only way, just putting in my 2 cents.

 

The way you write that, it sounds like the same thing, except calling it "tweaks" instead of "nerfs". Personally, I'm never a fan of nerfs in any game: I've seen games neutered into obscurity when their answer to everything was nerfing it, and this one would be no different. Changes to the game mechanics via 10v12 or 8v12 would change the way the mechs behaved, simply because they would allow the weapons to remain the same (stronger, as they are in lore) while evening the playfield in one way or another. Of course, the problem right now is that the game doesn't include Clan vs IS in a normal gametype...and by neutering the clantech in mixed matches like we have now, they basically strip away the allure of the mechs themselves.

Nerfs are not the answer, greater game mechanic changes would be in the right ballpark though. The problem is, this is PGI we're dealing with, and they've already started the nerf train up. I have a suspicion that clan weapons will get repeatedly hit with the nerf bat, THEN we will get 8v12...and the clan mechs will be laughably underpowered as a result, and PGI will take a good 6 months figuring out that the two things in concert don't work. I hope they prove me wrong...but I doubt they will.

 

While it makes sense to nerf Clan-tech to make game experience for (pure) IS Pilots more comfortable, there are soo many points which would break the game also if you nerf Clan-Tech. I only mention two: 1. Lore-fans would start to whine and ragequit the game. 2. People who actually paid lot of money for the Clan Packages would be pissed because PGI would take away what they paid for and ragequit the game.

I think nerfing Clan-Tech would make more People quit the game than not nerfing them. The Majority of the Playerbase has both IS and Clan Ware in their garage. It's only a Minority which stays with pure IS stuff. So the solution is not that simple by nerfing Clan-Tech and then everything's gonna be ok. We need some solution which pacifies the majority of the crowd!

Nerfing Weapons was one of the few reasons why many people left the game BEFORE Clan Mechs arrived. Remember Ghost Heat, Gauss Loadup, AC2 Nerf etc..? PGI would redo a same mistake if they Swing again the nerf axe.

 

Silly Blagg, quoting yourself