http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/208441-mech-rebalance-and-pts/ Long read but worth it. I have created a short video where I log on to the test enviroment and check what's what. However, don't take my opinions for solid conclusions. If you can, check the PTS yourself and look around. Spoiler: Paul explains Mech Rebalance Hello MechWarriors, So here's the big scoop about the new 'Mech Rebalance. First off, let me explain the reason why this rebalance is happening. When we first started balancing the Inner Sphere 'Mechs, it was completely about making sure that every chassis had a role and that loadouts were not abused. Over the course of a year, we essentially balanced IS vs IS 'Mech technology/loadouts. Then came the Clan Invasion, and with it the introduction of Clan technology to the game. Clan technology is and commonly known to be over-powered using BattleTech rules. This is not what we wanted in MechWarrior Online. Many of the past MechWarrior games resulted in an arms race trying to get to a few Clan 'Mechs, and everything from that point on was rendered pointless/obsolete. What we did for MWO was trying to keep as much flavor of Clan technology as we could without allowing it to be outright over-powered. We did this via distributed damage by the weapons, meaning Clan Autocannons would spread damage by firing multiple shots per volley, Clan lasers would burn for longer durations, Clan missiles would fire in streamed clusters. If the Clans were 100% over-powered, this change brought them down to about 70% over-powered. Slight changes were being introduced at this point to try to bring that down even further. It was also at this time that I was heavily invested in both time and attention into getting Community Warfare ready for the holiday season. A set of fixes for overall 'Mech rebalances were suggested from certain parties, which made efforts to address the concerns of certain play styles and the competitive-based tiering of 'Mech capabilities. This eventually spawned into the Quirk system that is currently in the game. I will not try to pass the buck off on this, as it was my responsibility to monitor what was happening outside of Community Warfare. What I saw was an ever-growing disparity between a standard 'Mech chassis and the min/max end result of quirked 'Mechs. The level of power creep was growing with every pass of the quirk system, and certain 'Mechs started to perform far above their intended loadout capabilities. Community Warfare was finally wrapping up its intensive and time-pressured core development, and more of my time could now be spent on other parts of the game. This started a long series of discussions revolving around the current 'Mech balance and the direction that Quirks were taking the game. After these long talks, it became very apparent that the new Quirk system was taking balancing in a direction we did not want to go in the first place. While the overall structure of the Quirk system had the right frame of mind, the implementation and values were straying too far from a properly balanced playing field. This brings us to where we are today. Before bringing another large influx of players into the game through Steam, we need to take the opportunity now to reset and balance the 'Mechs in a manner that is best for the game in the long run. I have to be honest with you; some of you will love this new system, others will hate it (especially those who might rely on 'meta' builds that push the limits of the current Quirk system). That being said, here is what the new balance system brings to MWO that the current system does not. Information Warfare/InfoTech is being brought to the forefront of 'Mech capabilities. This is something we had left untouched for far too long, but now is our chance to get it up to date. The time it takes for receiving target information, the distances over which you can share information and how long you can keep said information are all being implemented on a per-chassis basis. Another aspect that the new system brings into play is balancing ‘Mechs against each other at the variant level, prior to balancing them against each other at the chassis level. Once the variants have been balanced and made unique, each chassis within the same weight class is then investigated and rebalanced. It is only after all of this happens that we look at the final balance gap between IS and Clan technology. The Process: Each variant for a given chassis is examined based on its loadout, agility, and geometric layout (such as where the hardpoints are located). Each 'Mech is then given a score based on those factors. The scores fall into 4 categories: Protection (armor/structure), Firepower (loadout/hardpoint location/cooling efficiency), Mobility (speed/torso twist/torso pitch/etc) and InfoTech (this is new, but incorporates information gathering time, target retention time, and information sharing ranges/sensor ranges). These scores are then combined to give a base number which is used to compare variants within the chassis, and the first pass of balancing is then performed. No 'Mech within a chassis will be highly efficient in all 4 categories. This is where the first layer of 'Mech balance and Role Warfare makes each variant unique within its chassis. Here is an example using the Jenner JR7-D: In the image above you will see that the Jenner D was more about movement and mid-range firepower. Its InfoTech score was set to the middle of the road as it shares InfoTech common to all 'Mechs at this current moment. To differentiate the Jenner D from its counterparts we buffed its ability to be more heat efficient and gave it the ability to gather information very quickly at longer ranges. Its overall protection doesn't change, as it is a Light 'Mech geared toward a more scouting-oriented role. The delta can be seen in the image below: If you are the type of player who wants to play the Jenner in more of a striker role, you would probably go for the Jenner F at this point. To accommodate its specific role compared to the JR7-D, we would buff the JR7-F to have higher inner structure and higher firepower capabilities at the cost of reduced sensor range/sensor speed. This is essentially the drive for the inter-chassis differentiation of variants. Next, we look at the global scoring of all 'Mechs of the same weight. 35-ton 'Mechs will now target an average 4-score system that will have them all performing around the same level. The above is repeated for each 'Mech variant in each 'Mech weight class. So yes, a 40-ton 'Mech has a different score to adhere to than a 45-ton 'Mech. The score will not vary widely, but it's enough to give it a slight edge over its counterpart. This system is then run across every 'Mech in the game. All Inner Sphere 'Mechs are now in a relatively decent area for balance. Further tuning is needed, and there may be some data entry errors in the current PTS build, but it's important that we get what amounts to a massive change in the balancing system for MWO in front of you all as soon as possible. Much the same approach as above was taken for the Clans, but Omni-Pods of course had to be accounted for in the variant specific scores. This brings us to today and the Public Test we are going to be running. The current PTS build comprises the first set of numbers in the database, and all of them are still open for tuning (drastically or only slightly, depending on metrics and your feedback). There are aspects covered in this write-up, such as the above diamond graphs, that we will add to the 'Mech Stats screens when this feature goes live on to the production servers. We hope you can find some time to try out the new system and provide constructive feedback on what these changes have done to your style of gameplay. Thank you for participating in the ‘Mech Rebalance PTS, and thank you for playing. (Pauls TLDR below) Here's a quick look at the test server and some chitchat from me regarding the system, I ramble a bit but you'll survive it I think. And yes, I forgot it was Pauls post.
It does look like Lights generally get bonuses on Mobility/Infotech and some protection (structure). Less firepower bonus, though I believe this attribute is the one PGI will be most cautious about. Mediums are similar to lights but not as extreme in the values I saw. Heavies lean more on protection and less on infotech. Assaults have the largest bonus on protection by far, should have firepower bonuses? See earlier reasoning. Still looking around.
Hrmmmmmmmmmm, thats interesting. I haven't played in 4-5-6 months or so, so am totally not qualified to comment on the changes. I've started to paint my new place and once that is done I will be rebuilding Project Ti Fighter into a Define S case so can re-install MWO when I reinstall everything else.
I always had some skepticism with the mech quirks concept, so i'm looking forward to the new approach. Hopefully it gets us to a new direction, where Mech Building Creativity becomes again unlimited and not flawed by a frame given by the quirks. E.g. if a Variant has a specific weapon quirk like LRM15 -20% Heat Generation, why should i use other Missile Weaponsystems on this Variant or the other way around - why not use the suggested Weapon System by the Quirk Bonus? Some specific Weapon Quirk choices are even illogical imho (look at the UM-R60L!?) Quirk Bonuses should be generalized on a more loose package, e.g. the Variant has more ballistic weaponslots - give it generalized ballistic quirks.
You know @Blagg Zear that is something that I had not considered. Being able to make unlimited builds would be pretty sick. We saw the same 5 chassis in comp drops over and over so this will allow a good deal of diversity.
Looks promising, but with these kind of quirks something has to be done with clan XL and IS weapon range.
Well, I don't mind it, but this means the crap variants with less weaponslot and such are going back to the deep end of the garage. Without the quirks there is no point in using them. Infotech is less useful when you pug, which is the bulk of the player population. No, whatever people are thinking people are not going to actually communicate and work together, and sharing info does not benefit individuals unless some xp/cbills bonus is added. So basically, still not many incentive for people to scout around. Simply put, I don't mind seeing a bunch of quirks go, as I do think the quirk system is nothing more than a fix for weaker chassis variants. But I don't think this would belance the game either. Even though most Clan chassis get stacks of nerf quirks it is still going to be superior if the weapon issue is not addressed. I don't relly like dragged on matches either, though I can see PGI wanting the matches to be longer.
This is the conclusion I've come to as well. It's just like: "Well, I could gather info on them at a really long range with this variant, or just hit them very hard from long range with this one." Which would you choose? Again, yes. Why would one take info over firepower? The way I can see this working out alright is if the variants that have less hardpoints get more buff for weapons. I dunno, just hope they know what they're doing.
I put a long reply here...people should add their comments, as we're trying to get PGI to pay attention. http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/208862-pts-my-thoughts-and-problems/ Here is the text, for those who don't want to click: After more time on the PTS before Paul took it down...well, here are the notes: 1) With the changes on PTS, and the lack of any real buffs of substance to a lot of the IS mechs, there are a TON of chassis that are simply going back onto the trash heap, where they were before the quirkening. The list is pretty much the following, based on how they performed in the PTS: LCT, COM, JR7 (which may have bugged quirks ala the above), FS9-A, S, H, and K, SDR, PNT, MLX, CDA, CN9, BJ, HBK (all except the laserboat variant), QKD, CPLT, DRG, TDR, ON1, VTR, HGN, BLR (some, not all), and AWS, all of which were underperforming to a hilarious level. The ADR and KFX are managing to perform a bit mainly because you can use cERLL or cPPC to keep them at long range, and the Ember is back to being the best of the IS lights, though the RVN-3L still snipes well with the ERLL build. The ACH remains the strongest light of them all. The other light mechs, unfortunately, have been gutted, with some (Commando, the Spider-freaking-5V, MLX) being nerfed, despite their position as the bottom of the light pile before. Heavy, medium, and assault mechs in the IS had a lot of issues as well, with the SCR, HBR, EBJ, and TBR being the reigning kings in the Med/Heavy slots. The AS7-D is by far one of the strongest IS assaults now, but its HP bonuses basically do nothing against the clan heavies and DWF, which are able to tear through all that extra health much too quickly for it to matter. The exclusion of a similar level of structure quirks on the other Atlai make for a start contrast, as they utterly melt in comparison. The BNC still does alright, as does the Zeus (but less so), meanwhile the other assaults have a lot of problems. The interesting exception, btw, was the Mauler...but that kept its weapon quirks, so it's hard to say where it would have been otherwise. IS vs IS I can say that the matches were amazing (early on, there were almost no people in clan mechs), with a lot of super-long battles and lower TTK. IS vs clan, however, was the opposite...and as more and more clan mechs showed up, things got VERY bad. Edit, a quote from page 2 that's worth noting: 2) The Information Warfare part of it is, in short, garbage. The experienced players on the PTS basically ignored it: no LRM or SSRM builds as a result, and the game became nothing but point and click. No one bothered even targeting in some matches, and it just became a game of "look for the smoking component" on a lot of mechs. Within about 4 or 5 PTS matches, every single person I was seeing had switched to meta pinpoint builds: Gauss and ERML or something similar. No missiles, no brawling builds, just long range meta pinpoint that didn't rely on any kind of targeting to perform with. Light mech percentage dropped under 10%, and I never saw it go above that again (lowest I saw was 1%), which is telling. Of course, it may have been higher at other points of the day. The Target Acquisition Delay (TAD) is by far one of the worst changes...in addition to making LRM/SSRM builds more or less negate-able in a lot of situations, thinking from the perspective of a completely new player, it does nothing but make the initial parts of learning this game even harder. While experienced players can see a mech and know where to shoot (HBK, RT. HBR, LT for ECM/lasers RT for gauss. Etc.) a new player has no context for any of this, which means it will be even harder for them to learn how to target properly. Even worse, I'd predict it will make it even less likely that people will target properly as new players. 3) As I mentioned before, the maps are too small, too linear...this includes CW and the new River City/Forest Colony. This, in and of itself, negates a lot of what they are trying to do with the new information warfare. Making entire weight classes and chassis in the game into "scout mechs" completely negates them, as the endgame focus of every round is still on The Big D: Damage. Mechs that aren't able to do damage quickly and efficiently are completely unable to add anything in the grand scheme of each round, and this were quickly discarded on the PTS for mechs that COULD put out that damage. Again, as the PTS went on, I saw a lot less IS mechs, and a lot more SCR, TBR, HBR, EBJ, and DWF with the occasional ACH thrown in. Several rounds I saw only had 2-3 IS mechs TOTAL, not per side. 4) As someone mentioned above, and I mentioned in point 1, a lot of the mechs simply lost any unique feel that they had. The only builds that became worth taking on the PTS were the ones that could do pinpoint meta, since everything else was just too spotty. This meant that a lot of the flavor builds, or builds that made a specific variant feel unique, just went away. No more AC20 build on the HBK. No more SPL/MPL Firestarters (both builds are awful now). No more 3 PPC awesomes either. Add in that a lot of mechs lost their best features (for instance, Centurions lost the bonuses to their shield arm) along with their firepower potential, and you start to see major problems with diversity. Gauss/Medium Laser builds became the flavor of the day, since you pretty much NEEDED them. 5) The build focused almost entirely on IS, but had Clan changes that were either nonsensical, or just plain...missing. I mentioned before that the TBR actually got stronger than it was previously. The SCR, HBR, EBJ, and DWF also all remained more or less the same...but the GAR, MLX, IFR, SHC, and SMN all were made worse. Meanwhile, the removal of all weapon quirks on the IS side gave the Clans a huge range advantage that proved insurmountable in many rounds. No one that I know went into CW, but I kinda hope that they would re-open the PTS and only let people do CW in PUGs, no premade groups. I imagine that a very start realization would be seen at that point, as it would paint a very clear picture of exactly how much that range advantage really matters when one side has nothing of substance to be able to counter it with (even the best Gauss platforms would likely not be a strong counter). However, I doubt that we're going to see that happen any time soon. Another option would be to just force Clan vs IS on the regular modes, like they did once before. It will be ugly, without a lot of changes, and a MAJOR amount of focus needs to be diverted to that problem. 6) Building on #5, one of the major mistakes with this is that Paul and Russ both hinted that this balance pass will be dedicated to mech balance and quirks...but not weapon changes, which will come in a later pass. Now, I'm hoping that they just meant a PTS pass, but the way this was stated before does not give me a very strong hope in this regard. If weapon quirks don't make some sort of return in the later PTS passes, it's going to be disastrous if they take it live, since we'll have to go through the entire "what the **** are they doing" phase a second time when they then rebalance all of the weapons...and we have to wonder if it was done properly to account for the new quirks. However, this is going to have some side effects. For instance, does rebalancing the weapons mean that clantech is neutered, or is IS tech going to be brought up to the level of Clantech? The advantage of quirks, in addition to making each mech feel different, also meant that IS weaponry had a chance to stand up against clan weapons in various situations. That is now gone, and it needs a lot of attention before it gets fixed. 7) As someone who remembers the "Dark Days" before quirks, and even before the Clans, the unquirked mechs had a lot of problems. Each weight class had some major heroes: Lights had the Ember and Jenner F, plus the Raven 3L and maybe the Spider 5D. Mediums had the Shadowhawk. Heavies had the Cataphract. Assaults had the Victor. If you go back and watch videos of the early league play, you notice that every single team is running the same mechs in the heaviest slots: CTF-3D and VTR-DS, the two best poptart mechs in the game. High-end play was stale and repetitive, because that was literally all you saw the top players bothering to run. Almost the entire rest of the mech lineup was categorically ignored until the JJ nerf came into the game, and then before much longer we got the clans. This introduced the SCR and TBR as the top mechs of their weight classes, and with the possible exception of the HBR, nothing has dislodged them (the HBR many consider better thanks to its high mounts). Everything I witnessed on the PTS showed a return to those days...a tiny roster of mechs worth playing, and an entire slew of mechs that you warned people away from purchasing. It was, in short, complete and total ****. 8) The final note: This. Wasn't. Good. Enough. This is not what we've supported, paid for, and tried to get people to play. The quirk system, even with all its flaws, was playable and it allowed for a lot of variance in what you would see in each match. The next few PTS runs have a chance to fix things, repair the damage, and make the game still playable without neutering 90% of the mechs in the game, but it needs to be done right or this will kill this game. I can honestly say that if what we saw during the PTS this time were to go live, MWO would be done for. Now, we still have at least 2 more PTS iterations to get through, and with any luck, Paul will listen to what people are saying and undo the worst of what they've done here...but if not, I honestly believe that we could be looking at the worst thing to ever happen to this game, and that's including IGP still being around. So that's it. I'll keep playing on live, I'll check the next PTS when it drops...but overall, this first run has left me completely demoralized, and already looking for another game to play, just in case the worst happens. Call that alarmist if you will...but as someone who saw it all first-hand, I'd simply call it honest. I want to continue playing this game, I like this game, and really enjoy streaming it as well...but it needs to be better than what we saw this weekend. It HAS to be better. I truly hope you will see this, Paul, because we have a significant amount of improvement to be built around the current base for this patch to have a chance to help the game, rather than irreparably harm it.
And another part from later in the thread: The problem there, which I accidentally left out of my initial post, is as follows: No matter what changes have occurred in the game, no matter how the meta has shifted, no matter which mech/mechs are considered the best in the game, there has been one simple truth for as long as MWO has been a thing. Damage. Is. King. Any mech, any game mode, the most important thing is that you're doing damage and killing enemy mechs. While Conquest and Assault may end with something other than kills, it doesn't change the fact that "kills before caps" is a common approach of most players in this game, and it's more likely for rounds to end as a skirmish result rather than by cap points. The problem with this is that players will continue to put the heaviest emphasis on their ability to do damage and influence the progression of the match, rather than their ability to support other mechs. Now, there are exceptions. Some players enjoy running around with a NARC mech and making sure that LRMs can rain on assault mechs all day, but consider how often you see a NARC mech versus...anything else. I did mention in the OP that the PTS saw a lot of people reverting to full on Meta Mode, utilizing high alpha pinpoint builds to maximize effectiveness, ignoring the fact that they couldn't target things the way they used to. When push came to shove with the new TAD (target acquisition delay), people simply ignored the mechanic and focused on doing as much damage as physically possible in each alpha. Why? Because getting target information has no importance when you can simply point and click at a mech and do 45+ damage. That's yet another thing that this latest build ignored...all this emphasis on target acquisition and identification and whatnot meant nothing to the people playing. All it did was pigeon-hole us into making the nastiest meta builds we could in order to get around it. The sign of a bad mechanic is one that does just that: makes everyone simply work to get around it and ignore it. If Infowars was working the way PGI wanted it to, we all would have been playing that variant of the game on the PTS every time, trading info back and forth to determine how the battle unfolded...but instead, it was the forgotten thing left over in the corner that we just shrugged at and said "meh" before moving on and actually playing the game. It didn't work.
The only way to make Information Gathering worth playing is to introduce a complete new Game Mode, where your team Must gather Information besides killing to win the match. That can be done by simply putting in some Scout Challenges for the Lights, to gain Information Gathering Points, which have a big impact on the final Teamscore/Match Result. When a match ends, the Team wins with the highest Teamscore. So simply said - even if your team massacred the opponent team by bringing the most deadly Alphastrike/DPS Builds, if you didn't bring enough Lights to gain the "Scout" Scores you maybe lose. So such new gamemodes must bring some Win Goals to direct the Players to do something else than just simply "kill before cap", rather has a "Race for Information" character
Jeez. I'm laying in bed reading that before going to the office and I felt like the apocalypse was coming. I spew a lot of doom and gloom on MWO but is it really as bad as all that? You are a huge fanboi (meant in a good way here) and if even YOU are saying its not a good direction then I really hope they listen!!!
Good thing is that they seem to be taking in feedback and put up new ideas, lets see how this one would do. Personally I don't like dragged on matcches.
