Last-Man-Standing: Best "Just Saved the Day!" Matches

Playing a lot of Conquest in light, I'm often in the last man standing situation. Nothing glorious most of the time, hiding in a volcano and shutting down praying they don't find me or cap our bases

But some more epic games happen, like when I was last facing 5 or 4 mechs, down on caps, on a Commando (never underestimate those buggers)



I also remember a game of a friend. Conquest mode again, we were way ahead on cap but the enemy controlled most bases. Actually they were capping the last one, it was one of those situations where we'd lose with 725 points and no cap left. So instead of hiding, this friend engaged the brawl on the cap point against like three mechs supported by LRMs and stuff, took the beating of his life but was able to survive and prevent the cap until we got 750 points. Very tense.

 

Making this my new goal. I can't remember ever being the last mech standing. Might take me a while... I'm generally very aggressive and I'd rather die in a fight than to miss the opportunity to slag a mech though

 

One of those damn tight matches. It was a question of who grazed who first. It was the Phract and one of the two legged Spiders left. I'll admit, I had help from my base. But man, the adrenaline was pumping in that one. Had I turned the wrong way, or shut down at just the wrong moment...

But this next one was even better. I was grouped with the Don and Drew at the time:
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa259/Alex_Knight/MechWarrior%20Online/ScreenShot0017_zpsaba8d35a.jpg[/img]

So they had a Phract with a Gauss and a Gauss Jaeger left. I got lucky and the Jager emptied the last of his ammo at a failed shot on me. Still, wasn't 100 on that and so I worked him over real quick.
The Phract I had up close and personal at the top of the ramp near Theta (Smurfy shows it as B4 on the map.) I was hopping around to make sure that the Phract didn't get a shot off on me. It was a lot of stress until I stripped armor off. Then it was MG death. I think afterwords I shouted "Pay-to-Win Bitches!" on TS. After all, it was the Ember and is quite a solid mech. Heh.

 

I posted this one in the Banshee 1000+ DMG club a while ago, but it is still one of my favorite matches yet.


By all accounts I should have been dead, as I was left alone against a STF-3F, a CTF-3D, and a VTR-9S. I used up my remaining AC5 rounds tearing off the CT armor on the Stalker, then finishing it off with my 2x LLas. The CTF-3D then ripped off my leg with an AC-20, but was somehow not able to finish me off, even though I was cored, no ammo, and had no armor on my remaining leg, while he had yellow/orange armor. After taking down the CTF, I turned around, immediately saw the VTR-9S, and killed him with one shot, as he was at red internals.

http://s22.postimg.org/x34glror5/Screen_Shot0097.jpg[/img]

 

Best one I have was from a while back in the Jenner 1000+ forum as well...I think it counts, since the only other living guy on my team was a DC Got us the win, instead of a tie...so screw it, I'll take it

Skirmish on Alpine, we had a lance run off early and get slaughtered, and with the DC on top of that it looked like a wipe. However, we lured their team away from sniper hill, and engaged them at the antenna, spreading them out as we did so, which netted a lot of damage and kills before they started getting people down. As the fight ended, we had nearly equal numbers, but they had some better luck coring people, so I was left alone against three mechs. I knew Roomba was still alive (Stalker M), so I focused on him first and was able to finish him off without taking much punishment. A CTF in an Ilya was next, but he strayed too far away from the Atlas and I was able to isolate and core his back before his teammate caught up.

At that point, I was trying to duel the Atlas down while my teammates were screaming useless info at me (very distracting), was able to get half his weapons stripped, but I was in bad shape and he still had an AC20 with some ammo left. I worked my way to his back using Seismic to spot him, and was 1 alpha away from killing him when I ran out of time. Hard fought match, and I should've gotten that last kill...just needed 2 more seconds

 

I just had one of these a few days ago (a week ago?).

Crimson Strait, our team started out poorly. A few minutes in and we were 3 or 4 kills. Main enemy force was pushing through the tunnel, and the last 5 of us were under the elevated portion. I decided to sneak around and see if I could flank the enemy and maybe relieve some pressure from our big hitters.

I made it to the back of their forces, killed a Jagermech, and began firing into the enemy stalker's weakened side torso, when the stalker + other mechs felled my last ally. At this point I knocked the last weapons off the stalker, and tried to locate the other two enemy mechs. I came out the tunnel, and saw a commando, when I thought, "Hey, this could be a cool match, maybe I'll record some!". I have the last part of my video uploaded below if you want to witness some exciting (mediocre skill) last man standing action!

I was super tired from a long shift, and the adrenaline was pumping like crazy, so I was a little twitchy with controls, but I figured I had a shot if I could disable the commando/gimp it from running away, and take on the remaining mech (turned out to be a hunchback).

Final Score.



That was a game where aiming for weapons actually helped (of course, you can't have your kill stolen if you're the only one on your team too).

Apologies for the poorish quality of video. Also, I figured you guys didn't want to see my 6 year old videos on my normal youtube account, so I made a new one .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKO9MNULc4U


P.S. Thanks Lan/Cpt Chattahah for the Jumpin' Jack Flash TDR build! It's awesome. But, as I said in that thread, I got a little excited twice during that final push, and overheated twice. Maybe I should've hit "o" or just not left clicked. Oh well

 

Well this was nice game with greath fight with raven on last cap, from wich he runaway, the try to kill me at range, blow up my torso, but no XL sooo... i just start caping the point and shoot back But there is AFK on my team so, dont know if it counts.


Oh and this is just very funy game, at least for our team, but again if disco counts
[img width=700 height=437]http://i62.tinypic.com/2u61yk1.jpg[/img]

 

No screenshots, but this is the story of the best competitive round I ever had.

It was in last years Last Mech Standing tournament or league or whatever, some dumb shit. DV8 hadn't lost a game yet. We were fighting some random unit on Canyon and from what I remember, they had a bunch of centurions and jenners. I forget our dropdeck, but I was either the lone 3D or we had one other. The tonnages for the round were light so that's why they were running that.

Anyways we opened going wide and tried to find them and just pounce on them basically, but as we did that they rolled a nice pincer on our press. I was in a 3D and I wasn't up front. So I started laying into guys but our boys were going down pretty fast. I was working on lots of guys, but a lot of them were lights so it was feast or famine on the hits.

About 30 seconds or so go by of this and most of our team has taken dirt naps. Just kinda gettin swarmed at this point. I'm still sitting back kind of near the edge of the map, I want to say this is near the southwest area (the bridge not near a starting base). These 3 centurions start to turn and come for me, as their Jenners start looking for our raven (Nuclear Weapon) and a beat up jenner, maybe peef.

I'm still poptarting over the final ridge kinda under a bridge, some rocks nearby etc. I nail 2 of cents and core them out with back to back kill shots as they start to close about maybe 200 yards out.

The third comes around the corner and I instinctively look at him and just leg him. The jenners of course are on their way now and I start shooting at one of them. They turn and run away. The cents been putting what he has left on me and trying to get closer, so I jump up on top of this bridge and kinda hide behind a rock to take stock of whats going on. Nuclear makes his way back to me, but their Jenners had killed peef or whoever was in our beat up Jen.

So Nuclear's like "what are we gonna do" and TS is kinda chaotic and I'm just like, give me some fucking space ppl let me work the situation sorta. I peep around the corner and the jenners are making a beeline right at Nuke, so I nail one in the face. He goes down, and so does Nuke. The other one runs away again. So I'm like, ok what to do... I kinda hover near the rock again in the corner, thinking. So ppl are like "go here go there" and I'm like "im going under the bridge first to check around below in case that legged cent is nearby"

Drop down, and he's right there. Lol! I blast him in the face and he drops. Jenner is nearby and he starts trying to do a circle of death, he was damaged all around but nothin severe. I just tried to keep calm and handle business without making a mistake since I had the armor and dmg output advantage. I caught him a couple times in the shoulder and he dropped.

So I got the last 5 kills in a huge comeback in a league round that was surely gonna be a loss and kept our perfect season alive in that league!

It was the best round I ever played that I didn't record. It was best of 3, and the next round was on Tourmaline. I got shit on first if I remember correctly, but we cruised thru that fight anyways.

 

Just saying Epikt having a monstrous round and it came down to just us.

The scene is ...

We're winning 5 vs 3 and I go in close after a Jester that's taking cover from my long range fire and quite hurt. Its a knife fight around a rock outcropping so I'm totally concentrated on the immediate location as I'm paired ERLL/ML against a much heavier short to med firepower setup... at point blank. Get the kill and hesitate a second hugging the rock to get heat down. Peep round the corner and there's a Griffin circling a rock to get a line of fire on one of our jaeger's so I unleash everything on his side to pull his attention.

That's when I realise things have gone badly wrong, the mech looks fresh and and its now 2 vs 2!

Turned into a bit of a boring fight as I ran relative rings around the Griffin using speed and height and killed him. Downside was one leg was now bright red and the other orange. Both arms orange but torso is essentially intact.

Right we have this as its the jaeger and I against a blackjack! We are well ahead on cap and changing Theta.

No sight on the BJ so the usual paranoia sets in.. then as we finish turning it he flashes up close. DD isn't doing much so I start to duel the BJ-1. Minor damage builds up on both of us and I try to move in to land a full weapon load on him.... then he pops up looking right at me and I desperately twist everything to soak the damage. In the process totally fucking up my volley and lasing a large area of rock nowhere near Epikt! My heat was maxed so its doubly bad.

Not sure if I soaked the damage or he missed in shock at me being so close.

In the meantime my team are giving some totally random and differing advice so I start to work my way to another cap zone as we're 465 vs 300 or so and 3 cap points vs 2.

Right at that moment Epikt pushes on the DD and rips him to shreds in one attack... thanks DD for (not) mentioning how damaged you were....

So its Epikt and I for the match in a war of positioning. JJ vs speed.

I walked away imagining the music from The Good, The Bad and the Ugly playing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQGGQ-FCe_w

I'm obviously Clint Eastwood in this version.

 

That was a great match, very tense final.

Just for the story, I got the Jag with an arty strike. Too bad that for a long time I forgot I had one, because I could have kill you both if I'd drop it when you were both on theta.
To be honest I'm kind of frustrated by how it went, the first thing I noticed when I made my approach was your very weak legs, with my pulses I should have legged you in no time. But I missed a lot. Part of it is "intentional", I had no idea of the jag's loadout and status so I didn't want to expose myself too much (my right torso was open with bright red internals). But part of it is me being very impatient on my shots, instead of cautiously taking them.

Anyway, GG.
(and it's OK with me being Lee Van Cleef, he always was my favourite )

 

The Don got to witness this.

Skirmish on River City Day. I'm running an AWS-8R LRM Boat, which is a grind mech so I am being a douche to my team and not upgrading to DHS.

The game ticks down to five of us left. A stalker LRM boat which was out of ammo and down to just his four mediums, and myself with a decent amount of ammo for my quad LRM 10s, but only two medium lasers. Their remaining mechs were an ECM Cicada, ECM Raven, and a BLR-LRMer (Imma call those BLRMers now...)

The Cicada was circling me with his medium lasers taking shots when he could. He must have been too far damaged because my two got him before his four could even take out my finally breached torso. The BLR and the Raven were working over my Stalker pal, who finished off the Battlemaster shortly before the Raven got him. That left me to deal with the Raven. Lucky for me, he was already in pretty bad shape, but I figured I was a goner. The minute he ducked away, I'd never be able to catch him and then he could find a nice roost to pick me apart from, outside my Med Range, and if I did happen to get a TAG on him, bolt from his roost and move someplace else before my LRMs hit.

Nope.

We were in the river valley under the bridge. He attempted to go up towards Sigma, where I had a TAG and LRM lock, getting a small number of missiles on him (most were deflected by the bridge, which caused an oh fuck moment for me.) Rather than continue up that way, he came back down into the river and tried to head towards Kappa, which is when I finished him off.

All in all, not bad for River City and for a mech with Single Heat Sinks. (It's pretty much Blagg's Heavy Missile Support build. Without DHS...)

 

I forgot what happened in this game, but suffice to say it was puckering up everyone's butt. I do remember that hunchback that made the comment in the chat. He was legged and out in the open, I meatshielded him to victory because the last opponent was a Cataphract with some scary ass loadout that would have annihilated me.

http://i.imgur.com/qjtAdFj.jpg[/img]
This I remember a bit more clearly. I was harassing every mech I could find, running through a group of their fatties and crippling legs or dropping strikes. The kill lead was switching back and forth between teams until the end, when their K2 and 3D started really mopping up our damaged guys and we went down to 10-8 with just myself and the Battlemaster alive. I had no more ammo in my machine guns (all 4k rounds used up, lol) and my teammate and I were able to get a couple kills before the 3D finally finished him. I managed to double leg the K2 right at the same time my teammate was killed, which put the 3D and I very close to each other. He had the PPC/Gauss combo on it and legged me, then took out my left arm (jj shielding saved me) but in doing so he shot his last round of gauss. I'm not sure if he thought I had died with the left arm getting taken off or what, but he hesitated for just a moment which gave me enough time to leg him right back...and be within the minimum range of the PPCs. After a few shots with my little medium lasers, I finally killed him.

Chat blew up pretty fast, much fist pumping ensued. Wish more matches were like that

 

Strangely, just had one of my proudest fights but that might be because it was an adder (which apparently is the worst clan mech).

We'd started brilliantly by catching an awesome out in the open trailing behind his lance. Never managed a hit on us and then pulled the plug while taking fire (why???).

Then it went to shit and they threw a phalanx of Atlases's and Direwolves supported nicely by most of their team against our flank. Rolling it up for minimal losses and smashing into our main. Luckily for me I was off harassing their 1S LRM boat and his Nova bodyguard with help from a Cicada. 1S got back to them but we took the Nova with minimal damage.

That left us with 7 of them (Dire wolf, 2 Atlases, Firebrand, Stormcrow, Battlemaster and one other) vs 3 of us (Adder, Cicada and JM6). JM6 was taking suppressive pop shots at them and the Cicada finished off 2 I was shooting (Stormcrow and one other). I or the JM6 got an Atlas to make it 4 vs 3. but then combat attrition told and they killed the cicada and JM6. Just me in my crap Adder against 3 assaults and a heavy ... no big deal.

Then began a really hard hit and run fight over 4 minutes as the 1S got a volley of LRM's on me so my CT was red. Slightest hit from almost any weapon they had and I was down.

I never stopped moving and pulled them apart - taking down the last 4 - Direwolf, Firebrand, 1S LRM boat and an Atlas.

Then had to solo find their disconnect with 1m 30s to go and no help from other side.

Luckily it was the Locust and so I killed it with 17 seconds on the clock!

 

I wish I recorded games, I probably have a few dozen that'd make for good entertainment.

 

Get Open Broadcaster Software, run it as a recording software. It can compress on the run and it's decent quality at very little space. 2-3 hours are about 4 gigs. If nothing happens that evening, just delete them.

 

Just finished this one.

Start on the Gamma side for skirmish in my trusty Blackjack 1. I do my usual and go to the cave walls at C3 and watch for seismic while my team heads off around to the lower end of the city at C4 I start seeing the pings on my radar as multiple mechs move through the tunnel and I'm pointing out in team chat that an ECM lance is behind us, yet no one bothers to turn around. A teammate in C3 with me starts getting nailed by a 2xLPL, 2xAC2 Jager and I make a run for the rest of my team as we go down 2-0 in the opening ceremony.

Luckily, once I reach the tightly clumped artillery bait known as my team in C4, we have gone up 3-2. I watched through a gap in my facepalm, however, as no one turned around/45° to the left to engage the DDC, 3L and Jagers now firing from the tail of the dropship. I move around to C5 and jump up to the rocks to take some pot shots at the DDC as a friendly Jester fruitlessly engages him. I manage to take out his left torso and remove his ECM as my lancemate Direwolf starts to fire his LRMs at him while the rest of our team begins to get corralled. By this point my AC20 arm is critical but still functional as I move into full defensive mode at the hill in C5 with my lancemate and the AFK DDC.

I've taken out a single enemy and damaged a number of others that have crossed the gap between our position and what remains of the team between the buildings but now we are down 9-6. My lancemate and I back down the C5 hill a bit as a Trebuchet, Cicada, Raven, Jager, Battlemaster and Shadowhawk close in on us. For some reason the Raven charged down and attacked the DDC, lol, which netted me an easy kill. The remaining five did not push over the crest so jump jets gave me plenty of chance to nail them with well placed shots. The Treb was killed by my lancemate after I took the Shadowhawk and my right torso is now open and my left leg is seriously crit. Our DDC gets killed but myself, the Direwolf and the enemies are all 1 good shot from death. We move to the top of the hill and I get the Battlemaster as the Direwolf puts his last shots into the Jager, dying just as I land from a jump, destroying my leg but nailing the Jager with another AC20 shot to his torso, putting him down. The Cicada realizes that he's too close (literally 30m from me when he starts to run) and tries to get a shot on my right leg as he flees, but the last AC20 after my little JJ hop hits his open CT and ends the game.

Would have been much easier if they had just reacted to the warning of the tunnel rush, but yay, personal glory!

 

Ok very odd match incoming.

We're on River City Night in assault mode and sadly on the bad side.

I'm in Vergere/Enileph's SupaRaven Kit Fox - mods are shock absorption (and artillery that I forgot).



End result:



Our lance is the top one, then we had a FRR duo, CW trio and mixed 3 man. Looked like a recipe for disaster but they had a Merc 4 man, FRR 4 man and a mixed 4 man or 2 two's. Basically no dominant large groups. They started with a disadvantage as one down.

They started well with converging behind the citadel (ok its what we call it as its the dominant point!) and, in a moment to make you scream, our company splits into 3 with a third attacking towards their base, a couple of people flanking to the old airbase and the rest in the middle... and the losses started mounting up no surprise. We lost two fast and our lance has to move in to reinforce them and pull the remnants back into cover. I'm standing in the rocks of the park firing at their blob every time they show themselves and for once using my head. Trying to keep at about 800m-1km to minimise damage as they had a lot of ballistic firepower. Managed to kill a JM6 and repeatedly plaster a DWF but they were ranging in uncomfortably.

By this time their Adder had spotted our two at the base not doing much and I took a couple of shots at it as it ran to them.... then almost as if by clockwork precision 4 on their side wheeled and hammered straight there crushing our two. Only good side is I managed to fire into them as they moved in as fast as my lasers could cycle. Still not a good exchange as we were 4-1 (7 at the bottom of the citadel and me in the park).

Then their Direwolf pushed the left (park) side ramp of the citadel. He had heavy and medium support but they slowed/stopped for him to lead. Taking the chance I was pouring in fire into the timberwolf, jester and another JM6. Before switching to the direwolf as it was pushing on well but focused straight on our timberwolves and nova's. Almost guiltily I finished it off dropping a triple c-erll, then 2 doubles into its CT! It crumpled and knowing another 4-5 were incoming on the left I switched targets back as they'd moved into the water together to strike directly into our flank. Its 4-2 (3 really as they're one down).

A brutal push pincer develops and our side really tried but was massively outgunned and collapsed in on themselves taking two with them plus the Timberwolf which died fighting me. I don't quite see what happens at the other end as I'm moving like a mad gadfly stripping his armament. Irritatingly he then heat killed himself so no kill for me. Its a horrifying 10-4(5). They're hunting down the last person and I gut an Adder and a Kitfox that are firing into the back of our mech. Again I feel a bit bad for my blue but he was good bait.

Unfortunately that makes it 5 vs 1 as he falls.

In hindsight it was a Hunchback, Nova, Raven 3L, Kintaro and JM6. Possibly Not the best odds I've ever had.

A furious battle develops as the Kintaro, JM6 and Hunchback go for me. I have no idea where the other two are.

Much appreciated their approaching into my fire. It must have been thankless as withering laser fire took down the hunchbacks ballistics then switched back to the JM6's arms then back to finish off the Hunchback as its closing.... then back to the poor JM6.

Amusingly one of my lancemates who will remain nameless (*cough* Clan Wolf *cough*) pipes up on comms.

"Hey this one is doing really well we could manage this*... *wait thats you Remarius*.

Cue my amused sarcasm.

Except I've made a mistake.... in my dance I'd not only let the Kintaro get too close but also not noticed that the Nova and Raven had been clearing the base defences .. then the warnings started and suddenly I was running out of time.

We were both semi fresh and I was desperately trying to find every bit of cover I could as he chased me hard. Just couldn't lose him so was trying to pull him away from the base as I wasn't sure how many were there. Turning point was me stripping his launchers and then managing to get more range to reduce the effect of his lasers.

Then it sank in... that bar was dropping quite fast.

No one had any idea what their armament was so my semi battered Kitfox went on a deathrun down the right side of the map, across the park then down the edge behind the buildings hoping they wouldn't be paying too much attention in that direction.

The timer has under a third to go so I threw a literal hail Mary and Jumped over the low sheds at them desperate to stop the timer. Raven 3L and Nova.... oh crap and I can't lock them to check which to target first! I'm desperately hosing down the nova as I've caught them totally flat footed in the dark. Then the 3L counters me and in come the streaks etc. Ooops. Changed target as I didn't have a good line now on the Nova and I tried to leg the Raven while moving around like a madman and having to stay in the base area.

Then things get seriously weird as I'm deluged in flame, machine guns, streaks and lasers. My heat is rising inexorably and all I can do is go to 2 MG's and 1 C-ERLL which I can keep firing non stop. I'm twisting and turning trying to continually keep my sight free of flames.

Then a moment of joy as I legged the Raven and then took it apart.

Twisted and locked the Nova.

Literally stopped dead on the base and was laughing on comms in sheer relief.

I kid you not... 6 flamers and then machine guns.

I literally just stood there with impunity as he tried to chip away my armour with his machine guns and took out his CT with my 1 C-ERLL and 2 MG's.

Celebrated with a mug of tea. Just a pity for the overheat death who robbed me of a nine kill.

 

This, so far, is the best match I've ever had on my Kit Fox.



Alpine Peak, we started out on the "bad" side, so our entire team went to rally at the antenna. Which means that several of us went there, and the rest of the team went to the bottom of sniper hill to try and snipe upward...so things were looking bad right away. I decided to try and fish with my KFX, and stayed back, sniping at max range (knowing I was doing next to no damage, but trying to annoy them into coming for me). Eventually, I made my way up on top of the hill just east of the antenna, where you can only get using JJs. We were doing poorly, already down 3 people in the early going.

The enemy got cocky, and started going to the bottom of the hill...just outside the effective range of my lasers, but close enough that they would still do most of their damage, and I started lightning them up with relative impunity. I would snap off a few shots, take a step back, and watch as dozens of PPC and AC/LBX shots would impact on the snow in front of me, nothing was hitting. Over and over I did this, with at least six of their people just focusing on me...but they couldn't quite get the aim right, and even if they had, I was far enough away that their ACs wouldn't have hit very hard. I targeted what I could, and finally, I found the STK-3F, who was ignoring me for some reason...right until I crit his CT, and he tried to turn and run. He almost made it behind cover before I killed him, but they had done some bad damage. His death made it 6-1, and I was just determined to do as much damage as I could.

Things changed suddenly though...I stripped a leg off the Raven 3L, both arms off of each Timberwolf, and a leg off the FS9-A, making them retreat back behind cover while my teammates kept their fight going. As it tried to run, I finished off the Firestarter's other leg, and took out the CT of one of the Timberwolves as well. 6-3 now, the enemies move back up sniper hill and try popping out at first, but then they get smart and hide behind the mountain...at this point, I still have taken no damage, so I finally relocate. I also become aware that a lot of them are out of AC ammo, a result of them trying (and failing) to hit me on my perch. I quickly run across the bottom of sniper hill, and make my way up on the right side...and see the Jagermech staring me and a Griffon teammate down, but he's focused on the griff. I start chipping away again, stripping an arm (I sneezed during a shot and ripped it off, lawl), then cutting through his CT for my 4th kill in a row. I look up at the score, and blink for a second, because while I was killing the JM, something changed: the score is now 7-7. 2:30 remaining in match. I know the Raven is near somewhere and legged, but the griff goes looking for him...so I take the Sniper Hill perch instead.

Everyone but the Raven and the AFK DWF on their side is in the city, stuck between me, and two of my teammates...I let them have everything I could. The two TBRs that I stripped arms from are alive, and I take a leg from each before teammates get the kills, and I see the Raven die, making it 10-7 for us. Meanwhile, I'm trying to get a shot off on the DWF that was fighting, but he's hiding behind buildings, and a teammate finished him off before I could get the assist. Time runs out, only the AFK left, and we won the game.

I wasn't the only one alive, but after the screenshot, a few people on their side mentioned that I saved the day...had they not run out of AC ammo trying to kill me, they would have shredded us. Not to mention the nearly 1k damage I put out.

Great game, and one that finally made me stop despising Kit Fox so much

Edit: My build, was using the KFX-S, but the rest is more or less the same (I'm lazy )