ZEU-9S "DeathArm" (1xMRM40, 6xERML, STD325)
4/5,

1 rating

Thread in 'ZEU-9S' started by dranozir, Aug 16, 2017.

  1. dranozir

    dranozir MechSpecs Addict

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  2. waaaaaaaat

    waaaaaaaat Active Member

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    The same build also works with an absurdly expensive and fast XL390. Somewhat riskier, but 13kph faster so brilliant at flanking and faster than some heavies and mediums.

    It also runs 19 heat sinks, has no free slots and has half a ton of armor that can only go to the legs.



    Interestingly the LE variants don’t work as well because you end up with 18 heat sinks or an inefficient engine choice. 350 and 365 can work but I might choose the XL.
     
  3. waaaaaaaat

    waaaaaaaat Active Member

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    4/5,
    Solid build, by the way. A little odd but so powerful.
     
  4. Lorgot

    Lorgot Advanced Member

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    How about


    “Interestingly the LE variants don’t work as well because you end up with 18 heat sinks or an inefficient engine choice. 350 and 365 can work but I might choose the XL.”

    Yes you do, but it’s not that bad, and probably worth the extra survivability
     
  5. waaaaaaaat

    waaaaaaaat Active Member

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    Less ammo though? I tried 1110 rounds and easily ran out. Something doesn’t quite work about the LE builds since they need more than 350 speed and the 355 jump is significant.

    I already find it pretty hot at 19 heatsinks.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2018
  6. waaaaaaaat

    waaaaaaaat Active Member

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    How about this?



    18 heat sinks, AMS, LE350, 1360 rounds. It's the “responsible” version of the original STD engine variant. I'll give it a try, but I might miss the flanking power and slightly higher sustained DPS of the XL390 engine.
     
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  7. Lorgot

    Lorgot Advanced Member

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    I’m not sure, maybe it’s your playstyle, but it should be enough to last the match.
    I mostly go by https://www.mechspecs.com/resources/all-about-ammo.33/
    Also you said you find 19 DHS hot, how is 18 better and ams are almost always a waste of space, usually just positioning correctly will work just as well.
    I agree that the 355 is inefficient, but it gives you the extra speed that you seem to like.
    Lastly, my build has the same amount of DHS as original build and XL build, so it would have the same dps.
     
  8. waaaaaaaat

    waaaaaaaat Active Member

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    AMS for the team that positions badly, not for me. As long as I have a 350+ engine repositioning is easy here. The idea with AMS is to make better use of 1.5 tons than a minor engine upgrade. Will I perform better going 1 kph faster? Probably not. Will my team do better if they eat one or two fewer ATMs? Perhaps. AMS is one of my last choices for tonnage, in any case.

    18 isn’t better, but I’d rather have 18 heatsinks than 19 with the wrong engine. Giving up a .5 tons for a tiny speed boost or 1 ton for speed and heat or slot efficiency is sometimes worth it. So is upgrading the engine when there is tonnage available.

    I will also never use an LE355 in another build but I would definitely run XL390 or LE350 in at least one other mech.

    Your alternative build has the same DPS, but my other LE builds for this can't fit 19 without compromise. Testing it out, 18 might actually be all right, though. I’m interested in optimizing it because the build is a bit high risk to begin with. But it is really fun!
     
  9. Lorgot

    Lorgot Advanced Member

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    This is a bit different, but how bout this?


    Or

     
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  10. CarloArmato

    CarloArmato Professional Potato Carrier

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    Because LPL compared to ERML has little gain compared to ERML: a single LPL deals the same amount of 2xERML but with the same range and damage. The fewer heat generated (-1.75) is no "balanced" compared to the additional 5 tons used. IMHO for this reason LPL pair very well with ERML in laser boats, but they are often not worth the hassle as "standalone" lasers (unless you really like the -0.23s duration, from 0.9 to 0.67)

    3xLL could have a little reason to exists, but a mere +90 meters with +3 tons and overall -3 damage is still very debatable... But 42% cooling efficiency vs 36% is definitely better and more reliable.


    That's probably the best non-XL / non-STD variant.

    EDIT: but now that I take a look at it, mine 3xLL build has better cooling efficiency, so it trades speed (from 70 to 65) for cooling efficiency and almost same damage and DPS.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2018
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  11. ShiverMeRivets

    ShiverMeRivets Well-Known Member

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    LPL is a lot better than 2ERML:
    1. The cooldown is significantly shorter so dps is significantly higher.
    2. Much better damage/heat ratio means you can keep that dps going longer, or carry less heat sinks.
    3. Beyond having 2/3 of the beam duration of the ERML, LPLs deliver their damage in larger packages, or "pulses". This makes the damage more concentrated.

    LPLs are the best lasers - except for their weight. Lasers usually have better damage/ton than ballistics. LPL has the same damage/ton as an AC20 (the best ballistic in that category). So a pair of LPL are basically an ammo-less AC20, with better accuracy, better cooldown, but much more heat, less concentrated damage, and no shaking effects.
     
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  12. waaaaaaaat

    waaaaaaaat Active Member

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    Another consideration for 3 LPL/LL vs 6 ERML is that the Zeus variants with fewer laser hardpoints (5S, 6S, 6T) are arguably better matches for that configuration. Using ERMLs plays to this variant’s strengths as a midrange striker or situational brawler.

    All of the same engine and heat considerations here apply to the 5S which I would run with LPLs or LLs.
     
  13. CarloArmato

    CarloArmato Professional Potato Carrier

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    @ShiverMeRivets Point 1 and 2 are correct, BUT
    Tonnage wise, you are dead wrong provided you have enough hardpoints and/or you can't strip armor from arms.
    With 14 tons worth of lasers, you can achieve 20 alpha strike with 2xLPL or 30 alpha strike with 6xERML and better overall cooling or speed.
    2xLPL, XL255 (armor stripped)


    6xERML, XL255 (full armor, bigger alpha strike, better sustained DPS compared to LPL)


    6xERML, XL280 (full armor, bigger alpha strike, exact same sustained DPS compared to LPL, better speed)


    3xLL, XL255 (old meta build, before ERML where a thing. Still not as good as ERML)
    Given enough hardpoints, ERML will always win both the alpha and sustainable DPS race, which is why IMHO they are almost always preferable over LPLs... That's also one of the reasons why 2xLPL raven-4x is no more used (the other reason is raven 4X quirks, they have been nerfed), resulting in the wolfhound taking away the same role with better tank, better alpha, better speed, better hitboxes ;)
    In a 1v1 situation LPL has a chance to win ONLY due to better damage application and because it can shield earlier (plus there are no free trades), but it still has to face a greater alpha strike with only ~0.3s duration longer, which is why in ANY pug match my bets will always be on the 6xERML.

    Rule of thumb: sometimes more hardpoints means more smaller gun, and sometimes more guns are more efficienct(see for example 2xAC2 VS 1xAC10: AC2s has less damage per ton, are slightly hotter and will likely spread more damage, but occupy less slot and, most importantly, has better DPS, which is why they were king in 1vs1 solaris)

    Technically yes, but only if you are limited by hardpoints, have tonnage to spare but not enough slots to boat heatsinks. For example, Enforcer 4R (with the same armor values) could either fit 3xLPL ... or 1xGauss and 5xERML with slightly lower DPS but mean better range (30 laser damage at 360 + 15 damage at ~660 meters).

    So... 1vs1 (solaris) they are good, in pug, meh: IMHO there are better combinations for the same tonnage, especially if you have enough hardpoints to do so.

    And don't get me wrong, builds like the the following Banshee is very good and is still one of my favourites non-strictly meta builds.

    EDIT: LPL are the only thing that makes sense in the niche case you have many tons free, few slots free (likely only assault mechs) and can't fit a bigger engine. Provided you can fit multiple ERMLs and DHS combined with other weapons, there is little to no reason to fit LPLs. Rule of thumb is that you'd better fit as much ERMLs as you can before attempting fitting LLs or LPLs.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2018
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  14. ShiverMeRivets

    ShiverMeRivets Well-Known Member

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    @CarloArmato
    Thanks for the detailed argument. I learned something :thumbsup:

    I guess I am just a sucker for pulse lasers (of all sizes). They usually feel more effective to me than the constant beam builds, but I can't argue with the numbers. Playstyle may have something to do with it. I will sure give more consideration to ERMLs in my future builds.
     
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  15. waaaaaaaat

    waaaaaaaat Active Member

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    If you are into LPLs, the ZEU-9S works quite well with 3LPL + 3ERML. Probably too hot and slow to add an MRM40 to that, though. It is not as good as a Battlemaster with a build like that because of lower laser mounts but you can certainly do well in it.

    3 ERML in the arm makes it easy to track lights who are hassling your group, even at range. Larger assaults often don’t have that capability, which makes the Zeus feel like a medium mech in speed and role, but with the armor and structure of a heavy or assault.

    Here is that build:

    https://www.mechspecs.com/threads/zeu-9s-junkyard-3xlpl-3ml-xl350.8994/

    Replace the XL with an LE or STD as it suits you.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2018
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