Why is the Summoner so agile!?

Thread in 'Summoner' started by Throet, Mar 19, 2018.

  1. Throet

    Throet Active Member

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    I've been thinking this over a lot lately, and looking at the 'Mech Mobility spreadsheets that Tarogato posted to Reddit. I'm having trouble figuring out why the Summoner is so agile. To find a weight class which has no 'Mechs that the Summoner doesn't outperform on at least one metric, you've got to go all the way down to 35 tons, because the 40 ton Arctic Wolf still has lower Acceleration, Turn Rate, *and* Twist Speed. And even above that, the Summoner handles better than most 55 tonners.

    Granted there are a few 'Mechs which outperform the Summoner above 40 tons, but the same question could be asked of all of them, really. Why are they so comparatively fast? Wasn't Engine Desync supposed to more or less standardize the weight classes' mobility stats?

    As an example, I'll use the Huntsman. It has comparable capabilities to the Summoner in many ways. Yet, it has less armor *and* less mobility. Given that it's so much lighter and less armored, shouldn't it handle *at least as well as the Summoner*?
     
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  2. Shock

    Shock Patron of the Underdog Staff Member

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    The Summoner has relatively few hardpoints and low available tonnage ( no Endosteel). Without the agility buffs, it would have nothing going for it at all
     
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  3. Falconium

    Falconium Administrator Staff Member

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    This is a perfect example of the stupid inconsistencies I and others keep pointing out with this game. It's not like it breaks the game, or that I hate the game because of such things. But it's just stupid.

    Only reason I think the Summoner has such great mobility "quirks" (not really quirks, but that's how I see them) is that on release it was perceived as generally worse than the Timberwolf. With 5 fewer tons, generally fewer hardpoints to work with, and a technically worse hitbox, they may have thought it needed some other "selling point" to convince people to buy it, especially considering how iconic/popular the TBR is.

    So they may have given it the added effects then, in an effort to persuade buyers to purchase it; and then simply never returned to balance/nerf it. The comparison you make to the Huntsman presents a really strong point: why should a 70 ton 'Mech have the same or better mobility than a 50 ton 'Mech? I can only think of 2 potential reasons, and neither is very good.
    1. The Summoner has a larger base engine than the Huntsman, and as a result they share the same base movement speed. This could be said to contribute to higher mobility, though as you pointed out, the engine desync was supposed to "fix" things like that.
    2. The Summoner has Ferro-Fibrous armor, but no Endo Steel structure, where the Huntsman has both. I'm not saying this should affect the physics of the 'Mechs, but that it does suggest the Summoner is at a disadvantage in that it's using the less cost-effective upgrade without making use of the more cost-effective one first. We all know this is a noob thing to do, that you should never have (normal) FF armor on a 'Mech that you don't already have ES structure on. In my mind, being that this is unchangeable on the Summoner, and it affects the cost-efficiency of potential builds, it may seem cause to grant the Summoner a small increase in mobility as a way to "balance" things.
    This is just speculation and rambling. In the end, I hate these kind of inconsistencies as much as the next guy.
     
  4. Shock

    Shock Patron of the Underdog Staff Member

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    It's because at Max armor, the Huntsman has 3 tons more pod space. Without the quirks, you have a mech 20 tons lighter with the same mobility and more weapons. Who's going to touch a Summoner with that kind of disparity?
     
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  5. Falconium

    Falconium Administrator Staff Member

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    Precisely, unless you're interested in the wealth of (almost) unusable slots the Summoner has to offer.

    I did come up with this. Nothing special for a 70 ton 'Mech though; it looks under-powered and over-cooled.


    The Huntsman's greatest weakness is often a lack of slots for DHS. The Summoner can't complain of that.
     
  6. DerRattenmann

    DerRattenmann Active Member

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    The summoner suffers from its tabletop roots. Battletech was balanced with battle value points. The more advanced your mech's equipment was, the more expensive it got. Not having endo-steel or as many weapons put the summoner at a sweet price point and clantech being really overpowered made up for its many flaws (overcooled, thin armour, few weapons, insufficient or impractical ammo loadouts). MWO just doesn't work like that. Being 70 tons, the summoner is not meant to compete with the stromcrow or huntsman but more with the 75 ton timber wolf... and... uhm... yea... no. So tunring it into something completely different, like a heavy/medium is a nice way to make it viable by giving it its own niche.
     
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  7. Excalibaard

    Excalibaard 101 010 Staff Member

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    I think also that most of these quirks originate from 'ye olden days' where the summoner was pure shit due to pod space, hardpoints and locked equipment. Nobody played summoners, even after they got numerous quirks from being a 'tier 5 mech' going by the old system of rating variants and then giving them or their omnipods quirks to compensate for how los they were on the rating scale. After engine desync and new quirk philosophies still nobody played summoners and PGI kept buffing them. As sleeper OP because most people were concerned with the Night Gyr's dual gauss and erppc, the night gyr mobility got nerfed and summoner goes overlooked. Only now after the summoner's performance in competitive environments I think they'll reduce the quirks within 4 months.
     
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  8. DerRattenmann

    DerRattenmann Active Member

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    Not sure if it is worth nerfing though. Most summoners have been collecting dust in people's hangars for literally years. And even today their playstyle isn't for everyone. So if you encounter a summoner out there, there might be a good chance that it is piloted by a guy who has played MWO for several years and thus roughtly knows what he does. Combine that with him being happy to finally take this thing out without being the ridicule of the battlefield and you get someone who can finally vent 3-4 years of frustration in a now quite capable machine. A linebacker is just as, or maybe even more agile, has better harpoint placement, a more compact frame and compensates for not having jumpjets by being roughly 20% faster while weighing only 5 tons less. But I suspect whoever pilots it will not be as angry as someone sitting in a summoner.

    EDIT: And yes, if you couldn't tell, I bought mine for real money when they first came out. :D
     
  9. MayTag

    MayTag Junior Member

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    Don't forget the clan honor and bid system. The Clans were so confident in the superiority of their pilots and tech that before the onset of any engagement they would contact the planet and open negotiations, or bids, for how many 'mechs would be attacking, what weaponry could or could not be used, and with what the defenders would defend with. Speaking in terms of game balance this meant the clan player(s) would get less and lighter 'mechs and weaponry.

    As far as the MWO summoner goes, I got mine with the first clan invasion pack. Best loadout I've been able to come up with is 4xHML and 1xLB20-X. Decent brawler but I still feel meh about it.
     
  10. eishiba

    eishiba New Member

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    I actually like the summoner. Ive played since mech warrior 2 and always used the summoner. I use prime and take the omnipods for 2 energy hard points on each arm and run 4 c large heavy lasers. I can usually drop 2 mechs per game. It's decent at brawling. I cycle through each laser individually so I have a constant fire and keep the heat down. Once components start going people seem to leave the brawl and with the good mobility you can stay on them to finish them.
     
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