Speed is life ... How fast is "fast enough"?

Thread in 'Jenner' started by Christmas Jones, Apr 9, 2013.

  1. Christmas Jones

    Christmas Jones New Member

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    I'm a new pilot. I've only been playing about 10 days or so, and I ended up picking the jenner as my 1st group of mechs to XP out. I've watched a bunch of videos, and looked at a lot of detailed info about proper builds, and I keep seeing the same theme over and over ... XL engines in the 290-300 range to max out potential speeds.

    Now, I find that the only time top end speeds would really affect me are on the egress. The majority of maps just don't provide you with large areas where you can make optimal use of the top top speeds. Most of them tend to have boxy choke point areas or groups of cover, that you tend to dodge in and out of to break target locks, soak some of the dmg comming at you, and burn time while your weapons go from white to "only" red hot.

    With this in mind ( and before i actually purchase my 1st XL engine ), I'd like to get some input from more experienced pilots on the subject. What I am considering doing, is going for a direct ( 245->xl 245 ) or minor upgrade ( say xl 265 ? ), if that will allow me to put more "punch" on, for when i do get into position for that alpha from behind.

    I'm hoping, with the additional tonnage available, that I could put some combo of LL's, MPL's and ML's on, giving me more options.

    Something like this :
    And, with the smaller engine, id probably swap the srm2 for a ssrm2, add another heat sink, and another half ton of armor.

    Feed back / comments would be appreciated.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2014
  2. Mythweaver

    Mythweaver Advanced Member

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    "Speed is life."

    For light 'mechs there isn't a greater statement of truth to be found. But it's not just about your top speed. Larger engines provide more power to your Gyroscope and Actuators, improving their relative responsiveness. With a bigger engine your torso twists faster, your arms move faster, you accelerate faster..Faster,faster, faster...get the picture?

    Large lasers and PPC's aren't required to be effective with a fast, light 'mech. A battery of Medium or Small Lasers mixed with SRM's is about the best combination you could ask for.

    I consider myself a fairly decent light pilot but there are lots of better ones out there. If I were you, I would take a look at the 'mechs posted here by Mason Grimm and UntamedZer0. They run the best Jenners in the game bar none. Copy one of their builds and enjoy the success that will come with practice. Michael has made excellent videos for light pilot's both new and old and there are alot of us who would be happy to do drops with you and give you ideas and pointers. Being consistently successful at 152KPH is a set of skills not easily obtained, but once you get there, there is nothing like it.

    Mythweaver.


    Post Script: Engine Size...Go Big or Go Home!
     
  3. Michael

    Michael Grand Poobah Staff Member

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    Welcome to the Jenner Nation, brother Jones.

    At one point in time an XL 255 was "good enough" but more and more light mechs run faster than that which means they can out turn you and out run you. It isn't just about defensive posture it is also about offensive capability. If you can move faster you can turn your torso faster (tracking targets is easier believe it or not), you can pull an enemy down from behind if you are faster or you can escape a bad situation if you need to.

    Not at all. In fact I'd be willing to bet if you came after my Jenner with a smaller engine even if I never fired a shot at you it is unlikely I would ever allow you to kill me. Yes, I said allow you to kill me. I can outmaneuver you and outrun you, I can turn faster than you and extend/escape faster too; whether that be into a city, around buildings or even using terrain on a open surface. It isn't always about a straight line it is also about being able to turn and burn.

    I would STRONGLY advise against this. You need speed to get behind an enemy in order to do this massive alpha you speak of and in a 245 XL you might as well just power down and let them shoot you. I have a Centurion that runs 98. Some Dragons run 100+. If you aren't considerably faster you won't survive.

    I used to run a 255XL in my F variant back in the day but the game is at a level where 255 XL simply doesn't cut it anymore; a 245 XL would be a death trap.

    Having the biggest guns but being slow will ensure your death. I would much rather have medium lasers, with medium damage capability, and be death on legs at mach 6 with my hair on fire because you can't kill what you can't hit and the longer I stay alive the more OVERALL damage I can do per match; thus the more useful to my team I am.

    An example would be a PUG match I did today. I did over 625 damage in my Jenner D but only got 2 kills. However I was at the top of the scoerboard for that match and, trying to be modest here, our pug team won because I spread my damage out amoung everyone, doing enough that my team was able to come and clean up.

    Mechwarrior Online isn't just about putting the cross hairs on an enemy and pressing a button to watch an enemy evaporate under the sheer awesomeness of your firepower; Save that stuff for the big boys in their 100 tonner IWin Buttons. You need to be able to utilize tactics in light mechs; evasion, terrain navigation, enemy weak points that you can capitalize upon with your speed and medium damage firepower.

    In the words of Kenny Rogers "Know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em".
     
  4. skribs

    skribs Min-Max Maniac

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    A lot of people try to go with the longer-range weapon on lights, but I honestly think it's easier to hit lights with lasers at long distance (hard with ballistics at any range). You don't have to track much to keep your large lasers on a light at 400m, for example, so Large Lasers aren't a priority to me. I wouldn't try to get the bigger weapons on the light mech, I'd be trying to get more heat sinks if I were to sacrifice engine power. That's another reason I'd avoid the bigger guns - they get hot, fast, and the laser-boat builds in the heavies tend to use more heat sinks than you can put on a Jenner.

    That said, everything Myth said is correct - the more engine power, the faster everything responds. Playing a light well means you have to be able to respond at those speeds. What you have to ask yourself, regarding picking up more firepower, is this - is it worth the speed? I've seen Michael AKA Mason Grimm play exceptionally well with a 255 engine; that might be a bit slow. The 280 XL will still keep you above 140, actually it's the same as a 200 XL in a Commando (which is probably just as popular as the maximum 210 for that chassis). The nice thing about the 300 in the Jenner is that nothing but another Jenner can move just as fast as you.

    My personal opinion is that in a light, the gold standard is getting the maximum engine. I understand that's just not possible for some builds, and sacrificing 10 or so engine rating to make it work is okay. However, I wouldn't be willing to sacrifice anymore than going down to a 280 XL. Any lower than that, and I'm going to be very easy pickins.
     
  5. Christmas Jones

    Christmas Jones New Member

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    Since I've never experienced it ( cause of only having a stock engine ), I wasn't aware that the larger engine gave you faster twists/turns. Makes a huge difference in the metagame consideration. I was looking at both a slightly higher dmg base and more heat sinks. Sliming down the engine a bit to get the large on wasn't really for longer range, just a boost.

    Basically, I was hoping to come up with something with a little more stick, and a little less move. And, wanted some feedback before I dropped 4M on an engine. I appreciate all your responses, and you are the ones I look for in the other posts, seems you 3 are some of the most knowledgeable pilots in the game.

    I've checked out most ( if not all ) the light piloting and tactics videos I've found on youtube and such, and they have been a big help. I have looked at the 4 ml 2 ssrm builds with the 295/300 engines. They look great, tbh, but I don't think atm my piloting/aiming skills could bring out the best in em. Since the game landscape is all speed now, and you don't think its viable, I'll stick to the recommended configs ( at least til i have c-bills to burn and play around ), and just keep working on my driving.

    I was in a light infantry unit in the army, assigned to a scout/recon platoon, so i understand small unit tactics with limited resources pretty good, and its been helpful. Ofc, can always learn more. Sometimes, thou, its just hard to try to work a viable tactic when the PUGs go off to try to work their 1v1 duels that always end in them getting wolf packed in a pitched battle.

    Would love to start making some drops with a regular partner, for more consistent collaboration, and for input and pointers. So if any of you happen to see me around, poke me and start up a convo. I don't know if my skills are up to par for a regular full lance group thou, wouldn't want to be slowing down a crew.
     
  6. Michael

    Michael Grand Poobah Staff Member

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    You are welcome for the information, that is why this site exists after all. While I appreciate the compliment there are far more knowledgeable people out there than I! I just happen to have a fair grasp of situational awareness (real life translating to video games) and I have more than a little bit of luck on my side too :wink:

    Find a Corps and join up or at least start hanging around in their TS3 channels, get to know some of their members, do some drops with them in PUG matches and take it from there. Usually people are pretty good about spreading knowledge and helping newer players hone skill. Some groups have a bit of an elitist attitude but you will spot their bullshit quickly and be able to steer clear of it.

    As for letting people down; if it's a PUG drop then it doesn't really count for anything other than c-bills. Get yourself up to speed before you start participating in League style play.

    Practice makes perfect.
     
  7. Durant Carlyle

    Durant Carlyle Star Lord

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    Having seen the responses here, I will give one dissenting opinion. I've run Jenners with 245XL and 280XL engines with no problems at all. I don't like running the odd engines, as I was trained on the tabletop game and 'Mech building programs like Solaris Skunk Werks. I still prefer to make tabletop-legal 'Mechs and play them in MW:O.

    I've made a Venom SDR-9KA using a Spider SDR-5D and it was pretty sweet.
    I've made an Owens Prime using a Jenner JR7-D and it was cool (before ECM).
    I've made a Wolfhound WLF-1 using a Jenner JR7-F and it worked pretty well.

    Contrary to what the others have said, the 113.4 kph afforded by a 245XL isn't an instant death sentence. And a 300XL in a Jenner isn't an IWIN button. I have dueled faster Jenners and won handily.

    I actually recommend a 245XL over anything bigger for a beginner. The sheer speed of an over-engined Jenner can be a detriment to a newbie pilot. You keep running into things because you're going too fast. The 245XL allows you to keep the excellent weapon mix of the standard JR7-D and get it to max armor or nearly so. Get good with it, and if you find you need MOAR SPEED!!!!!! then you should be able to afford it by the time your skills are ready for it.

    Anyway, that's my two cents. Take it or leave it at your discretion.
     
  8. Michael

    Michael Grand Poobah Staff Member

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    This I agree with. If you are new start with baby steps. Your reflexes will adjust and then you can take another step forward. It's like riding a motorcycle. Start with a 600 (or smaller if you need to) and then, ONLY then, work your way up to the liter bikes. Ideally, in my opinion, you want speed but only as much as you can handle. Graduated licensing sort of.

    This I can sort of agree with AND YET disagree with at the same time.

    113kph against a newer player who isn't really accustomed to dueling in a light? Sure, chances are you will ROFLSTOMP them.

    113kph against a competent pilot, in a faster machine, who knows how to duel? You will be toasting marsh-mellow beside the smouldering heap that was your mech.

    It all comes down to that old adage of "Anything can happen on Any Given Sunday".
     
  9. epikt

    epikt Benefactor

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    Imho the problem with a small engine won't be against other lights (at least not till you want to disengage) but jousting in the enemy pack. As a light I often act as a finisher, when a teammate almost killed someone but the guy stepped back and is now keeping the low profile on second line, still dealing damage. In this kind of situation you need to push for the kill, engaging and disengaging as fast as possible. Now speed is life (for you) and death (for them).

    Sill, I won't automaticaly go the the biggest engine - once my doctrine was "300XL or die", guess i grew wiser :D
    For example, you'd better use a 280XL with jumpjets than a 300XL without, jumping abilities worth a lot more than 10 additional km/h.

    pS: I won't go for 245XL but it's not really about the speed (even if it's getting pretty slow), more about the heatsinks. Then I'd rather go for a 255XL, it's my personal "minimum viable jenner engine" (as on this "heavy" build).
     
  10. Christmas Jones

    Christmas Jones New Member

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    Again, thanks for the input ... already picked up a 300 before the additional posts. Yeah, I can feel the difference in the responsiveness in the handling ... and yeah, i still tend to run face 1st into a building or rock fairly often. I'm playing with a 4x mpl build, with some shaved armor in the small hit box areas. working about the same as it did with the stock 245 an higher armor. Still gotta realize and force myself to soak some dmg on the arm armor once is a while with a twist ... but I hate taking eyes off target, and i dont drive so well when I can't see. Still not 100% familiar with all the maps.

    Will definately try sporting the 265 when the wallet is fat later ( and ive picked up at least another weight class chassis )

    Again, thnx for all the feedback.
     
  11. Michael

    Michael Grand Poobah Staff Member

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    Look at it this way, if the 300 XL doesn't work for you in a Jenner you can always save that bad boy and shoe horn it in to something larger. Never sell XL engines if you can avoid it. 50% of the original value on large price items like that suuuuuucks!

    Good luck out there!
     
  12. Mythweaver

    Mythweaver Advanced Member

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    You will know from your military experience that if you want to do or become something better then you already are; you act, learn and train at that level. I believe that you have done yourself a favour by going directly to the 300XL. Yes, it will be difficult initially to master stearing, starting and stoping. Hitting your targets at 150 KPH isn't easy to get a handle on either.
    If you take the time to 'graduate up' to the faster speed it could take you months to get a grasp on it or to even realize if it is for you. (Not everyone can pilot 'mechs at mach chicken, just like I can't pilot anything slower then 90KPH) By grabbing the bull by the horns you will have your answers in no time at all, days or weeks instead of much longer.

    When you are online send me a friend invite and I'll group with you whenever you are on. UntamedZer0 and I are on almost every morning (Eastern Standard) Monday to Friday.

    Mythweaver.

    Post Script: I have to agree with Michael, I am just really lucky, there are lots of folks put there that are better pilots. Thanks for the compliment just the same.
     
  13. Jay Z

    Jay Z Well-Known Member

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    XL300 FTW. Always go the 300 if you can
    XL295 if you need to squeeze that extra half-ton. (Streak Jenner D with BAP)
    XL280 is used by some other pilots that want more stuff (extra ammo, armour, DHS)
    XL255 for 2PPC, ERLL or sniper, troll builds
     
  14. DonGardenio

    DonGardenio New Member

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    I've rolled an XL245 Jenner-F with two ERLL and two MLas for a while already. It used to be worse with 2 ERLL and 4MLas and horrible heat problems and slowness(XL225?). With an XL245 I still managed to find pilots who can't deal with lights and die rather hilariously. Like that poor trial Dragon I humped to death. He kinda gave up shooting me and tried to run back to his team but I cored his back, after a lot of shenanigans of missing a lot, backing up against a wall and not accomplishing much(probably had arm lock on too). But not a good indication of how things usually turn out. I got out turned by a Thunderbolt and lost a final 1v1 duel for victory.

    These past two days I've been attempting to elite the Jenner and have spent time with XL300 builds on the D and K. I now realize the transgression of my ways. I still run into trouble, but I'm no longer easier pickings for the ramped up Locusts and Ravens. I manage to go toe to toe.

    I've been finding comfort with an ER PPC and 2x MLas on my Jenner-K. Going so fast, its kinda hard to keep those MLas hosed on your targets. So the frontload damage of the ER PPC is quite appreciated. Also 2x SRM4 and 4x MLas on the D is pretty sweet, SRM's being pretty frontload-ish.

    The guys saying jumping straight to an XL300 probably do have a point though. I haven't had much trouble handling my newly sped up Jenners, but it might be because I spent so much time running around a lot slower.

    The lower engine speeds are probably fine though after you get speed tweak.
     
  15. MadTerrapin

    MadTerrapin Junior Member

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