KGC-KJ Kaiju "Ogre" (1xLB20X, 2xSNPPC, 2xRL20, STD350)

Thread in 'Kaiju' started by Seranov, Nov 7, 2017.

  1. Seranov

    Seranov New Member

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    (Max DPS is 10, Sustained DPS is 5.10, not counting the Rocket Launchers.)

    When I think of Assault mechs, I think of a big, scary, short-ranged monster that can lead a push into the enemy line. This Kaiju is perfect for that role. It packs a reasonable 40 PPFLD alpha strike which can be further increased using the pair of RL20s, has very solid heat management, a very respectable movement speed for a 100 ton mech, can deadside effectively once the RLs have been expended, and has armor for days.

    I haven't fully skilled mine out yet (just bought it the other day) but it feels really good in the games I've played so far. It definitely requires you to stick with your team, lest you just get your big fat torsos or legs blown off with little to show for it, but you can definitely be the wedge that rams into the enemy team while your friendlies follow in your big stompy wake.
     
  2. CarloArmato

    CarloArmato Professional Potato Carrier

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    1xAC20 + 2xSNPPC can be achieved on a warhammer, which is a 70 tonner. Ok, you have more armor and 2xRL20, but they won't help you if you will have to face a second (or a third) brawler. You have lot of hardpoints and the King Crap have huge hitboxes, so I think it's one of the few mechs were I would propably prefer to mount more weapons and later rely on coolshots rather than passive cooling.

    But most importantly (EDIT: and please, don't take it too harsh)
    Pin Point Front Load Damage: LBXs (and missiles) are not pinpoint weapons.

    ACs / PPCs / Gausses are pinpoint: you will concetrate the whole damage on a single component because they fire one bullet/pellet only.
    Lasers / UACs are debatable: provided that your target is sitting still and you don't mess up with your aim, they can pinpoint damage too, but that's not true in practice because most of the times either your or your target is aiming and you will still spread damage (how much or how badly is not important: they can spread it). The longer the laser duration or the more the number of pellets per shots, the more it's up to receiving end to spread the damage (provided the user is aiming correctly). Also, if you screwed up your aim, you can correct it mid-fire provided you are fast enough to do so.
    LBX / LRM / MRM / SRM / RL are NOT pinpoint: if the pellets / missile pattern won't match or be smaller than the focused component, it will spread damage no matter how much skilled you are (read: not achievable even by using an aimbot).

    E.g.: try to hit a light's leg.
    With pinpoint weapons, you either hit or miss. There is no middle ground.
    With Lasers and UACs you are likely going to waste some pellets / damage, but you will likely apply it partially.
    With LBXs and SRMs, unless you manage to concetrare the whole spread pattern on the leg (extreme point blank range, very unlikely and most of the time it's not even possible), you will apply the damage partially.

    And I'm not saying that LBXs are bad weapons: most of them are lighter than ACs (except the LBX20), they have better optimal range despite the spread, they generate less heat compared to ACs and UACs which is an excellent middle finger to Flamers (and this is why they are very strong in long lasting brawls)... They do have pros, but they are NOT pinpoint. Simply that.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017
  3. Excalibaard

    Excalibaard 101 010 Staff Member

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    Regardless of the definition of PPFLD, I think you're onto something interesting here :)

    The STD350 is just a bit too heavy, I don't want to go much higher than STD335 personally and since LE is out of the question due to the LBX20, I think that's your best bet for an engine. Then the gained tonnage can be put into SRM6s which are superior to the RL20s because they can be used more often and are basically a spread crit weapon like the LBX20. I left out the artemis because it got nerfed hard and the damage is already spreading with the LBX20 anyway.



    Or you can go for a LE, and mount a UAC20 instead for more burst :D

     
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  4. CarloArmato

    CarloArmato Professional Potato Carrier

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    Exactly. In fact I got triggered and focused on cons.

    This one actually looks viable ^^

    Despite the nerf to artemis, IMHO SRM6 without artemis simply spread too much and travel slower. Since you are also using 2 tons worth of ammo (with maxed skills are 20 alfa strikes with 2xSRM6), you can swtich them for SRM4+A which occupy the slots and have the same tonnage: less spread, more chance to focus and destroy the component you are aiming at.

    SMR4 doesn't couple with other weapons' cooldown and is less heat efficient than SRM6 though, but as I said earlier they should be better on taking down faster an opponent, especially if your target has small or narrow hit boxes, so choose wisely.
     
  5. Excalibaard

    Excalibaard 101 010 Staff Member

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    I figured SRMs uaully aren't fired all that much anyway
     
  6. Seranov

    Seranov New Member

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    I wanted to go with the setup I suggested for a number of reasons.

    Firstly, in my admittedly limited experience, it's impossible to not lose that left side torso during a game with this mech, so I might as well put an expendable weapon in there. Since a LFE would cause my heat management and speed to go down once it's gone, I really don't feel it's worth using one over the STD engine. I also have found that the IS UAC20s are way too hot to use with most energy weapons.

    Secondly, the LB20X and SNPPCs have similar velocities and effective ranges, meaning that it can poke beyond 270m, until it can get close and actually start putting real hurt on folks, where the UAC20 is stuck with the anemic sub-700 velocity of its regular counterpart. It's more focused damage, that's definitely true, but I generally prefer the LBXs in my brawlers, due to the combination of lower heat and better velocity.

    I definitely see the points you guys have made, but I don't particularly feel that we are looking at this coming from the same direction. My goal was not to make an Assault mech that does all the damage, but rather a frontline mech that forces the opponents to focus on it, which the team follows in. Giving up a combination of speed or heat management to do more damage kind of weakens it in that regard. It's designed around the concept that "Aggression wins games," where it's not so much how much damage I can do, or how many people I can kill, but rather to lead my team into actually fighting the enemy. It works... alright, at least in my experience. If there are any mechs that are fit to lead a charge, the King Crab is definitely one of them.
     
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  7. Excalibaard

    Excalibaard 101 010 Staff Member

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    SRM6s are aso expendable when the ammo is used up, which is why I originally only wanted 2t :) I found Rocket Launchers to be really ineffective when I ran them. Fair point on the Light Engine, though it's possible to tank with left side without completely losing it. I still consider the tonnage advantage from a STD335 to be worth it over the STD350, if you replace the RLs. Big fan of using a shield side though.

    I find that the best way to draw fire away from your team is to have a scarier loadout though. From the enemy's point of view, why keep hammering into a kingcrab with 'only' LBX20 and 2 PPCs, over its teammate which has 4SRM6 2UAC20, so to speak.
     
  8. Seranov

    Seranov New Member

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    That's a fair point, I suppose. I actually have had some good success with the RL20s, using them as an opening burst on enemies to soften up their armor. I suppose it might be worth lowering the engine rating a little for some SRMs and 1-2 tons of ammo, with the intention of burning it off ASAP, but I'm not sure if it's really worth all that investment for something I don't expect to last very long. The RL20s weigh almost nothing, have decent range (same as the LB20X's optimal range) and do quite a bit of upfront damage that can be delivered in a very short burst, especially if I'm ~50-100m from the target. If they get blown off before I use them, that kind of sucks, but at least they don't explode like SRM ammo can.

    As far as ignoring me to focus my teammates when I'm in their lines, I can't say that will probably go well for them. Yes, I'm not AS scary as a mech running around with a 70+ alpha strike, but that 40 damage will add up if I can put it where I want with relative impunity. I've actually had some enemies just turn away from me to focus other people, and it's really easy to just remove their armor and crit them out with the big LBX when they do.
     
  9. CarloArmato

    CarloArmato Professional Potato Carrier

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    * 2xRL20 = 3 tons for 80 total damage (and 6 slots occupied)
    * 1xSRM2 + 50 shots = 2.5 tons for 107.5 damage (and 2 slots occupied) or 215 damage if you go for a full ton of ammo
    The gap will become even more obvious if we have more free tonnage or if we consider MRMs (and MRMs have a similar spread to Rocket Launchers). If you have 2.5 tons free or you can manage to have those free tons, you should really consider any other missile launcher over RLs.
    The only rocket launcher that is actually worth it is the RL10, because it occupy only 1 slot and has the best damage over tonnage compared to other Rocket Launchers (RL10 = 20 damage for 0.5 tons, while RL15 = 30 damage over 1 ton).

    That's one of the reasons why you should always place ammo in your legs: they can't be critted by a lucky PPC / LMGs salvo in the back and no one will ever go for your legs, unless you blatantly have little to no ammo in your legs.

    IMHO an assault mech should be the one that force his opponent to torso twist because he either swallow an alfa strike losing a component or will enjoy an instant ticket for the mechlab. Have you ever tried a 80 damage alpha strike mauler with 2xHeavy Gauss and 6xML? That's what I mean when I think about "punishing" enemies or give them a ticket for the mechlab.

    Anything lighter or faster than you should be the one or those who should attempt a flank or a backstab and, as I said earlier, a Warhammer 6R can mount 2xSNPPC and a AC20 while being fast enough to flank. When an opponent purposely exposes his back at you, you should not crit its rear torso: he should find himself back in the mechlab in no time or, at least, have it's own torsoes so red that he will have to walk with the back against the wall (ok, I'm kinda exaggerating if you don't have a brutal alfa strike, but you get the point).

    Also, Assaults are not meant to ALWAYS take damage. Since health does not regenerate (but heat does) any brawler should have the range and firepower to alfa strike the least amount of times to outpost the most damage (i.e. kill the fastest way possible or disrupt the most) provided that they will do whaterver possibile to last the longest they can, which also means flee or disengage if they are hot or are going to die too quickly, especially when they are left alone or without any support. That's also why long range assaults works well: they can deal an extreme punch at good ranges (e.g.: Deathstrike with 6xcERML and 2xcGauss, 72 alfa strike at ~450 meters optimal) and can hide between shots to avoid needleslly losing armor and cool down.

    That's why RLs are generally bad: they won't fend off attackers a 2nd time and you are literally throwing away a weapon for 1 strike which doesn't deal the same amount of damage as a tactical nuke (or a long tom, to stay on the MW lore).
     
  10. Shock

    Shock Patron of the Underdog Staff Member

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    your math is off because an SRM2 is only 1 ton, not 2. However, all that damage is over time. You'll get that 215 damage over a minimum of 100 secs, and that's if you can fire nonstop that whole time. A rocket launcher gives you it's damage in an instant. The argument you're making is like saying an AC2 is superior to an AC20 because it weighs less. In the case of something like this Crab, you want instant damage not DPS
     
  11. Seranov

    Seranov New Member

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    It's pretty easy to say that a single SRM2 + half a ton of ammo will do more damage than the RL20, but over what period of time? Almost a full minute? It's likely to get crit out LONG before it ever does that 100+ damage, too, where you can pretty much guarantee you will get the full use out of the RL every time. Which is mostly the point. The RL20s are not there to make my sustained damage better, but to provide a quick burst of damage to help me soften up targets in the early game, stored in a component that I full expect to lose due to shielding with it. I stuck them in there due to seeing how well people can do with RLs on a deadsiding Bushwhacker.

    I definitely see what you're talking about, but I don't agree. I would vastly prefer being faster, running cooler and being more survivable due to the STD engine, than having higher sustained damage output. Since just adding a pair of SRM4+As or SRM6s isn't going to magically start one-shotting targets over what the LB20X and SNPPCs can do, and they're effectively guaranteed to get blown off, how much they would actually increase my sustained damage output is questionable. Furthermore, if I held the RL20s for a bit, and used them in the same situation as I would use the SRMs in your suggestion, they'd do WAY more damage, even with their spread. If we were talking like 3-4 SRMs, then yeah, I would definitely agree. I'd probably even go with just the LBX and SRMs if that was the case. But for just a pair of them? Meh.
     
  12. CarloArmato

    CarloArmato Professional Potato Carrier

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    TL;DR version of my answer.
    The original build is optimised only if you expect to last enough to deal 40 * 4 + 80 = 240 damage dealt in 16 seconds (20 seconds if you account aiming). If you think you can deal more damage than that, then I assume is a safe trade to switch to a slightly lower engine (like excalibaard posted, a STD335, -2 km/h) and switch the RLs for SRM6 (12.9 * 2 * 4=103.2) or SRM4 ( 8.6 * 2 * 5 = 86).

    But an AC2 with 9 tons of ammo can deal more damage compared to an AC20 which will have 7 to 9 shots at the most (1 ton worth of ammo). Like you implicity stated, it depends on the mech, free tonnage, speed, expected range of engagement, hardpoint positioning and so on.

    But there are 2 main differences between the AC20 and a RL:
    1. the first one is pinpoint while the latter is not, which means you are not dealing that huge alfa on a single component and you can't even fire them pointblank range because it does have a minimum range of activation. The same spread applies to AC2: despite the DPS it is hard to focus a single component, even more if the target torso twists. Then, we again find ourselves in the land of "it depends": on a light I would use a single AC2 (and not a single AC20), on a heavy and more free tonnage, it depends.
    2. RL (big alfa) weights less than the SRM (higher DPS)
    Anyway...

    My point was to show that if you are running an assault which is quirked with +25 armor center torso and +17 armor per side torso, no matter what you say it is not fragile compared to other builds. The King crab is known to have huge CT (in fact, huge hit boxes on both CT and sides), so anything that can deal pinpoint damage won't go for a side torso, it will aim straight for the CT because whoever know what is he doing he knows he can't miss it. From my experience, more then often I died for CT destruction than for both side torsoes destruction.

    Also, instead of thinking "I'm going to lose that side, so I won't bother using weapons in the long run", maybe you should think "can I actually fit any decent weapon and somehow still preserve the weapons on my shield side?". The answer is simple: once you get cored on that side, you will protect it with the other fresh side torso. If the first side torso survives 2-3 alfa strikes, I'm pretty sure the other side torso will be able to tank the incoming damage because (in case of a 1vs1 or a small group), they should probably start to manage a high heat level.
    1. Is it more risky? Yes it is
    2. Is it easier to be said than done? Kind of, especially assuming that you don't lose focus and the entire volley will be focused on your shield side only (if they focus your CT, the issue of losing the missile side won't come up, the same will apply if the ballistic side torso gets focused, because in both cases the focused component will probably take more damage than the shield torso).
    3. Does it allow you to achieve better performance? Hell yes.
    4. How about if you don't get focused at all and have the chance to deal more than 1-2 free trades? RLs won't help you there.
    That's why I'm insisting on not mounting RLs. You have the build of a heavy (which is lighter of 25 tons) plus a mere one-use 80 damage with 2xSRM6, which can be dealt with 4 strikes in 16 seconds (or 20, if we consider an additional second to aim the target) and they do actually couple (or sync) with the other mounted weapons. You only have to switch to a LE or to downgrade to a STD235 (which overall loses 2 km/h out of 56) like excalibaard shown with his own builds.

    Or look at it the other way around: 80 damage are only 2 alpha strikes only from your 2xSNPPCs + 1xAC20, then you have to throw them away. Yes, they only weight 3 tons, but is it worth it to lose the space for the equivalent weight of 3 medium lasers (4-5 alfa strikes to deal more than 80 damage) and 3 times the slots? On a 100 tons mech that is fitting the weaponry of a 75 tons mech but it has more armor than a standard 100 tonner?
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017
  13. Seranov

    Seranov New Member

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    Saying it only has the firepower of what is probably the Heavy mech with the best combination of firepower and toughness in the game doesn't really lead me to believe that this King Crab isn't effective. And while only 2kph doesn't seem like a lot, the difference between going 60+ kph after speed tweak or not DEFINITELY makes a difference, as most teams will gladly leave sub-60kph Assaults in the dust. Having my best success in MAD-IICs and MCIIs, I can unequivocally state that being able to move your big fat assault ass as fast as possible is hugely important.

    The first version of this mech that I built had no missiles whatsoever, and that deadside was filled with heat sinks. It worked fine, but I discovered I could stick a pair of RL20s in there for no real loss (went from like 1.67 to 1.6 heat management), so I did. Giving up speed and heat efficiency for a pair of weapons that MIGHT be able to do more damage than the ones I've got in there currently hardly seems worth the effort or C-bills. When fired on cooldown, the PPCs make this build really hot. Adding additional sustained firepower with SRMs just means it takes less time before I either have to power down or start damaging my mech's internals. And if I decided to ignore the PPCs for most fights, then it would make more sense to just go MRMs in the shoulder and carry a bunch of small/medium lasers as backup weapons, instead.

    I have no illusions that your opinion isn't highly influenced by your playstyle (which is obviously not wrong, as it suits you), but I just can't see it meshing with the way I play. I like the Rocket Launchers, they work well for me, and I rarely find myself thinking "man, I wish I had a way to convert heat to damage" when I'm on the battlefield with this guy. Being able to double my alpha strike twice per match, that hits all at once (spread though it may be) and doesn't really take up much room or cause much heat is absolutely worth it, in my opinion.
     
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  14. Shock

    Shock Patron of the Underdog Staff Member

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    I'm with you on downgrading the engine to a 335. 2xSRM6 is definitely preferable to 2 RL20 and the speed difference is barely noticeable.
     
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  15. CarloArmato

    CarloArmato Professional Potato Carrier

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    Only for the sake of information

    Warhammer (70 ton):
    Marauder 3R (75 tons): 2xLBX10, 4xML (40 damage, spreaded, low cooldown for the twin LBX10 for higher DPS)

    Clan side: Orion-IIC-A (75 tons): 4xSRM6+A, 1xUAC20 (48+20 damage)
    And if we want something extremely brutal...
    DeathStrike: 6xcERML + 2xcGauss (42+30 damage, ~450 ~700 meters optimal)

    Ok, most of them are NOT pure PPFLD (and actually you can't deal more damage without incurring in ghost heat), but they deal a hell lot more damage with way less spread thanks to the artemis.

    EDIT: I completely forgot the MAL-2P 2xHeavy Gauss 6xMedium Laser, which is 50 + 30 damage

    To be fair and clear, I'm no against build variety, but the choices anybody makes for a build should make sense overall, at least on paper. Unless your goal is to make a troll / fun build (then anything said about the performance of the mech would be pointless because it's not the goal of the build) IMHO it should be somewhat reliable in its niche role, being it DPS, alpha strike, support, sniping, poptart or whatever.

    Sub-optimal builds are fine (MRM, LRM, whatever is not the actual meta) and some of them are even very fun to play (2xMRM20 + 2xRAC5 is an example of what I tried recently), but they can sustain damage over time. RLs can't and perform worse if you consider to survive a fight.

    2xSNPPC + 1AC20 is fine (maybe it's even meta since it's PPFLD), but IMHO not enough for a 100 tonner especially when you have other hardpoints free and tons to spare and to play with.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017
  16. Seranov

    Seranov New Member

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    I own both the MAD-3R and the MCII-DS (mine is set up with 2 UAC20s and 2 HMLs and is a lot of fun to play) and they don't really do the same job as the Kaiju. Those two are good, fun mechs, yeah, but if I want to tank damage and lead a charge, I feel like it's much easier to do so in this one.

    As a mostly Clan player, I am used to Assaults with little to no survivability quirks, so when I play an IS Assault, you bet I'm going to try and go all-in on being tough to kill and effective in a brawl. With my setup for this mech, I can brawl for quite a while without heat issues (especially if I can stick to mostly using the LBX) while soaking tons of damage. That's all I wanted from this mech, and it performs admirably.
     
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  17. Seranov

    Seranov New Member

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Best game I've had so far. I'm really satisfied with this mech, because even on a game where I die early with not much damage done, my team can use the momentum from my push to do work. It's a lot of fun.
     
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  18. rinco

    rinco Well-Known Member

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    A high kill count is always impressive. But this doesn't correlate with the point of being the sacrificial assault. I would even believe it adds weight to Excalibaard's point about having the scariest load out to draw fire. In your example most of your team died by the end suggesting you were not the primary target while you racked up kills. Or maybe your slightly increased speed kept you out of danger, who knows.

    In any case I am all for you using RLs. Analysis of RL effectiveness should be more than just comparing the damage output versus other missile options, be it instantly or sustained. Basically there needs to be more RL builds available so that willing pilots can continue to test in theatre. The metric we are interested in is the overall W/L ratio, which is not something that can be seen in a screenshot.
     
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