How much Armor?

Thread in 'MechWarrior Online' started by anamiac, Mar 27, 2018.

  1. anamiac

    anamiac Well-Known Member

    140
    44
    28
    Hello,

    It seems like most builds, the armor is done like this:
    Max out CT armor
    Max out side torsos
    Max out any arms that have weapons.

    The only decisions that people make are:
    How much armor for my legs (more if they're blocky, I'm a light, or there's ammo there)
    Do I want to armor my head. (how big is my head hitbox)

    It seems like the max has resulted in a lot of people not really thinking much about armor, just following a formula. But what if there wasn't a max? What if you could put 60 tons of armor on an atlas, leaving only 40 tons for engines and weapons? Or even more? If there wasn't a limit, how would we ever decide how much armor to bring?

    The converse is also true. Just because there's a limit, doesn't necessarily mean that our compulsion to build to that limit is always justified. Perhaps there are viable builds where the torsos are not maxed out? Are the trial mechs and standard configurations where the armor doesn't follow this pattern always wrong? Has anyone here ever ran a mech that didn't have max armor in the CT?
     
  2. Excalibaard

    Excalibaard 101 010 Staff Member

    5,051
    1,107
    269
    Yep, the Sun Spider I run with 44 CT armor because I die to side torsos anyway, and I put the tonnage into another DHS that helps a lot staying heat neutral firing just an ERPPC or ATM27.

    Usually 32 points of armor are more worth it than an extra ton of equipment, hence why I think more builds run near-max armor.
     
    Dagonus likes this.
  3. Falconium

    Falconium Administrator Staff Member

    1,499
    474
    67
    Current situation with the SunSpider hitbox is the obvious answer to this.
    I can say for myself, in the past, there were times I'd run less-than-max armor, even on my Torsos. For example, I'd drop half a ton from the CT on Jaggers occasionally (not regularly), usually to be able to carry more ammo. Back then Jaggers pretty much always ran XL engines, and everyone knew that and targeted their STs accordingly; so dropping a bit from the CT made some sense. The situation back then was essentially the same as the situation we have today with SunSpiders (with the obvious difference between IS and Clan XLs playing a role).
    Oddballs like that aside, though, nowadays I would pretty much never advise anyone to strip ANY armor from ANY torso on ANY 'Mech. I agree with @Excalibaard that staying alive longer with an extra 32 points of armor is generally worth way more than an extra ton could add to your build.

    Regarding the Head, for some 'Mechs it's hard to hit unintentionally (e.g. Atlas), while for others it's quite common due to its location (e.g. Jagger, Blackjack, Rifelman, Archer - especially the Archer). In the end, I think the community has generally applied the standard of being able to survive a double-Gauss shot to the head, which is 30 damage; so with 15 internal structure, there's been a tendency to drop 2 points of armor from the head, leaving it at 16, for a total health of 31 (ergo, no death to random double-Gauss).
    This is more of a number's decision than anything else, though. In practice, random headshots are extremely rare. Typically, if someone is shooting your head, they're doing it b33f-style with Flamers to shut you down, and a set of Lasers to burn through your cockpit, which usually amounts to more than 33 damage anyway (which is normally the maximum health of a 'Mechs's head. I say "normally" the maximum, as now, with Survival Skills, it's actually possible to up that by 2 points to an actual potential maximum of 35 health. But this is still a fairly moot point, as again, anyone intentionally shooting your head is typically doing so with enough damage to kill you anyway, or at least get close enough for a lucky crit.
    As a result of everything I've said in the last paragraph, I am personally of the view that you can safely operate pretty much any 'Mech with armor levels between 5 and 10. The idea is to have enough that your armor won't immediately be stripped by Lasers grazing your head; because if the enemy sees your head open, they are more likely to take the time to focus it, in which case there's a good chance they'll manage to kill you quickly by headshot. (I do this with the Pulse-Banshee fairly often.)
    So yeah, keep enough armor that your Head won't get randomly stripped; but don't feel like you NEED to keep it maxed, or at 16 even. Focused full-health headshots are quite rare, at least in my experience; and the best way to actually prevent it from happening is to avoid ever shutting down (especially in Assaults, which are typically the primary targets of Flamer-Assassins).

    Enough about Heads though. Let's talk about Arms and Legs.
    I've personally always been of the opinion that maxing armor is relatively unnecessary on anything 60 tons of heavier. The line is kinda fuzzy, I'll drop a bit of armor from even the legs on certain Mediums (though never on Lights); and I'll completely strip the arms of certain 'Mechs (like the Cicada-3M) which serve no purpose other than tiny and irrelevant shields.
    For the most part, where I do strip armor, it's because I think a build needs that extra half-ton or ton to run efficiently. Maybe it's an extra DHS, or a fourth ton of AC20 ammo, or even a second JJ. If a build doesn't need that tonnage though, I think it's totally fine to leave a 'Mech with full armor, as it reduces the chance of being legged, and means your arms can serve as shields as much as possible.
    It's worth noting that, on certain Assaults with weapons primarily or entirely mounted in the Torsos (talking Banshee, certain Battlemasters, Atlas, Kodiak, etc.) it is fairly common to see builds with armor several tons below the maximum.
    For myself, using the Banshee-3M as an example, I'll take a ton each from the arms (which exist purely to hold DHS and to serve as shields), and a half-ton each from the legs, for a total of 3 tons that I can otherwise use to increase the engine, to add more DHS, etc. In certain extreme cases, it can make sense to remove another couple tons (half-ton from each arm and leg), if you're trying to hit a certain engine-size, or to simply fit a particularly heavy build. In those cases, however, in my opinion, the risk is quite high. When you start removing that much armor, especially from the Legs, you're asking for trouble.


    I'm going to end this now-very-long post by sharing a build created by @Solahma for the Mauler-MX90, as found in this thread.


    This build represents a lot of what I've already mentioned. The Head-armor is at 16, the Torsos are all maxed, and yet the Arms are completely stripped and each Leg has a measly 50 points (which is normally dangerously low for a 'Mech this size). The thing is, all of that is justified for the sake of being able to carry such a monstrous build, with enough ammo to be useful, on a 90-ton Chassis.
     
    anonymized1 and anamiac like this.
  4. Dagonus

    Dagonus Moderator Staff Member

    453
    122
    156
    On heads:
    I'm a fan of 10. That's enough to survive anything less than an HGR to the face. If someone gets me in the face, gj. Better or luckier pilot than I am.

    On Headshots:
    This impresses me. I think I have like 3 career headshots; only one am I certain was not a shutdown/DC mech and was instead a rather upset Atlas that I discovered myself at point blank with in a WHM, pretech boost, and decided that since I wasn't going to get enough maneuvering room fast enough, I might as well go for gold.

    On legs:
    I find 40 is good on Heavies or 50 on Assaults. I suppose I live in the dangerously low category for Falc. I'll shave lower if I need the tonnage someone or dump onto it if I think I've covered all the weapons that I want. Usually, i find myself with a half ton dumped back into legs.

    On Arms:
    It is a bit all if there are weapons or less if it is for Shielding or none of it isn't (laservomit HBR comes to mind)


    On Torsos:
    There is variation here. It's a case of do you think 8 armor is enough in the back or do you go down to 6? Do you leave it at 12? I have found as I've gotten better, I've lowered my rear armor. Do the extra 2 points in the front really help? I don't know. Maybe I'm just more confident about not getting ganked from behind.
     
  5. Shock

    Shock Patron of the Underdog Staff Member

    870
    353
    171
    I usually go for 12 on my head but I'll go lower on fast mechs if I need to shave a few more points. Arms get full if they have a non-trivial weapon or down to 10 or less if they don't. Legs really depend on the mech. I'll try to max them if possible but shaving them down to 60-70% of CT armor is not uncommon.

    Like Falconium said, the Sun Spider is a special case. The torso hit boxes are so messed up, I put CT armor equal to side torso armor and the most frequent death is both side torsos gone while CT isn't even down to structure. To be honest, it feels a little liberating because it's something like a free 3/4 ton.
     
    Excalibaard likes this.
  6. anamiac

    anamiac Well-Known Member

    140
    44
    28
    All good answers. I always feel like I put more in my head than I should... I typically run ~6 head armor on lights and mediums, more on heavies, and near max on assaults. I've only been in one match where I was murdered at range by headshot before I fired a single weapon, but I haven't the foggiest how many times someone has headshot me at close range when I was already beat up.
    I agree with the legs - you need more if your legs are big or have ammo in them, and you should max out if you're a light because opponents will aim for your legs.
    I didn't know that the sun spider had a small CT. That's useful info, cause I got a sun spider with the christmas thing. Haven't gotten much chance to use it yet.

    How good is armor truely? Suppose we took this and tried to make it as absurd as possible. If there was no armor limit, you could make an annihilator like this, but with 75.5 tons of armor:
    300 points of armor in each leg
    40 in the head
    500 in the CT rear
    about 1578 armor in the CT torso.



    Would such a zombie be viable? Compared with the stock ANH-1X, you have 4.5 times as much armor, and it's all focused in your vital areas. You have 18 firepower instead of 70, but you can sustain 2.81 dps because you're very heat efficient (the stock manages 6.05). Seems to me it would be about 4 times the survivability for about 1/4th the damage.

    Or if you're a clanner, the SNV-3 would also make a pretty decent zombie, if there were no armor limit. If you went with ER large lasers, you'd be left with 60 tons of armor to play with:


    Is the tradeoff worth it? Is the ability to take more damage and be impossible to kill worth penalties to firepower and potentially speed? If the enemy is smart, they'll just ignore you and go after your strikers instead. Right now, unfortunately, it seems like few people think much about what their opponent is bringing, instead they just default to attacking the biggest mech they can see. That's perhaps understandable, as I'm normally firing my first salvo before I even have finished scanning my target.
     
  7. Falconium

    Falconium Administrator Staff Member

    1,499
    474
    67
    If you had 75 tons of armor in a 'Mechs center torso, would it still even stand upright?! :D

    I like the concept of going ultra-tanky with low firepower and minimal speed. But I would echo what you said about the enemy just ignoring you, and focusing the members of your team with more damage, until you were the last target remaining. A 100-ton 'Mech with 3 MPLs isn't really a threat to anyone for any relevant spam of time. It'd definitely be able to kill an enemy in a 1v1 over time, because it would just plain outlast the opponent. But in a team fight, damage-output matters alot.
     
    anamiac likes this.
  8. skribs

    skribs Min-Max Maniac

    1,685
    164
    48
    I think the bit about removing the armor limits was more about the concept than about actually doing it. For example, you wouldn't take an Atlas with 95 tons of armor/engine and only 5 tons of weapon.

    Similarly, where a lot of mediums and heavies can carry engines up to 360-400, they're generally best in the 250-300 range, because the amount of free weight you lose doesn't justify the amount of weight you would gain.

    However, along that analogy, I feel that going lighter on armor is like putting in a 225 engine, or going to a glass cannon is like going to a 175 engine. You get to the point where you're so slow or slow weak that the extra power isn't worth it.

    For me, it's a combination of:
    1. What's in the component
    2. How likely is the component to get hit (due to what's in it, how easy a target it is, and how much I can support it)

    For example, I'll lower the armor in a Stalker's arms because they never get hit, anyway.
     
top-fast
top-fast
top-fast
top-fast