Will you double up on Mechs with the new skill trees?

Thread in 'MechWarrior Online' started by skribs, Jan 12, 2017.

  1. skribs

    skribs Min-Max Maniac

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    I'd recommend posting that on the PTS forum on the official site, Blagg.

    I like the idea, and it should be somewhere PGI is looking for feedback.
     
  2. Aramuside

    Aramuside Star Lord

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    Have to admit I presumed something like this was incoming so took a bit of a break to wait it out. ;)

    Amusingly clan mechs with no particular quirks will get better... though those are the ones that don't have any for play balance....

    The high initial cost in xp and c-bills doesn't bother me but the inability to respec without paying a lot of money does bother me. They could rememdy that by raising rewards a bit as a simple change or just adjusting the costs.

    The thought of trying to level up my 282 mechs doesn't really encourage me to start playing again. Particularly as I have so many mechs that aren't considered the best as I enjoyed the challenge of levelling them.

    Kanajashi is doing a decent series on the changes:


     
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  3. Michael

    Michael Grand Poobah

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    I was up north this weekend, like the FAR north, with very limited internet access and Bolt still managed to get a message through to me on this. WTF?!?!?! I need to read through this entire thread from start to finish to understand what took place but it sounds like they realized the cash engine of mechs couldn't last forever so they revamped the skill system to encourage people to grind or to buy their way out again?

    I don't even......
     
  4. skribs

    skribs Min-Max Maniac

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    See, here I thought with all the Bushwackers I saw that their business model was working - make people buy a new Mech with real money for a while and then let them spend C-Bills for it months down the road.

    I think if they increase the costs a lot of players will quit. If the playerbase shrinks more will.
     
  5. Blagg Zear

    Blagg Zear Star Lord

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    Ow Thx for proposing, but i'm Not the First with that suggestion in the official Feedback Forum. It's pretty clear that MWO doesn't need more complexity that scares away Players and also generates more balancing work to do for the devs (also scary)

    This Skill Tree requires a lot more of $$$/Grinding (scary). I did some Math:

    E.g. you buy 200 Mechs in your Garage (many longtime Players have even more) and need 9,1Million CBills for each Mech to "Master" (all 91 Skills). Let's calculate with 9 millions for Simplification, and let's say you get 150.000 Cbills for a Match in avg, and you can Play 4 Rounds avg in every hour (including Waiting Time)

    200 x 9.000.000 Cbills = 1800.000.000 Cbills / 150.000 CBills = 12.000 Rounds to play / 4 Rounds per hour = 3.000 Hours to spent for Playing (excluding Mechlab Time!)

    Let's say you can Play 2 Hours every day (7days a week - that's a Lot for adult players):

    3.000 Hours / 2 = 1.500 days required to (Re)master every Mech. That's how many months or Years!? (Don't forget the CBills you need to grind additionally for all the Mechs you want to buy! very scary)

    Even if longtime Players get a 100% refund of everything they spent in the past, it's still scary to Grind with new Mechs. Mechs = new Toys to Play with on the Battlefield (Motivation for many many Players) => new $$$ Purchases to extend the Garage and pimp the new Toys. Simple Rule.

    In fact the game needs more Simplification+Transparency+Usability in the GUI, the Mechlab and the Skilltree. Make it easy to understand but difficult to master (Master Rule)! This whole overcomplexity makes it very hard for New Players (the Mechanics, the Mech Configuration, the Grind, the hidden rules for Ghost Heat etc), if You want more Players (=$$$) you need to get them with Minimum Complexity (less time to waste on other things than Killing Mechs on the Battlefield) + Maximum Fun (the Mechlab+Skill System must be easy for (Re)configuration! to get Mechs ready for the Battlefield very quick, high rewards for good efforts, more ROI for more time/$$$ spent on Playing/Mastering the Game).

    Every new Content that breaks with that Master Rule will suffer the Playerbase to have Fun with the Game. No Fun => Players Don't Play. More Fun => more Players come and stay. Mouth Propaganda will do the job Like wild fire.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2017
    Excalibaard and Michael like this.
  6. Think of how awesome Solaris or new weapons could have been with all of the time spent on energy draw and this skill (cash) revamp.
     
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  7. Excalibaard

    Excalibaard 101 010 Staff Member

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    The new skill tree is disappointing. I second Blagg's skill grid idea.

    Unlocking skills per mech is yet another boring grind for tiny number increases. They need something that's NOT grindy and is meaningful beyond 'better numbers' in this game for once.
    Ideally, if they want to step away from the 3-per-chassis system, why not make it a class-wide or maybe even game-wide bonus? If you advance a (medium) mech variant by reaching a threshold of XP, you receive a skill point for a skill grid (specific to that class?) full of various benefits that can improve different kinds of builds. Each new skill further from the initial middle of the grid costs an increasing amount of points and specializes further.

    Example:
    UP: Scout (radar-depr, speed, targeting, UAV, ECM, NARC)
    LEFT: Tank (Armor buffs, structure buffs, component integrity, damage reduction)
    DOWN: Brawler (SRMS, lasers, MGs, big ACs, flamers, heat dissipation)
    RIGHT: Support (LRMS, PPC, small ACs, range, cooldowns, Ammo)

    Special skills will be available at the grid areas between the 4 directions in order to provide a way to link into several powerful skills that could encompass both themes.

    Examples:
    SCOUT has skill that reduces target info gathering
    SUPPORT has skill that reduces LRM spread
    Connecting node/grid area reduces LRM lock-on time.

    BRAWL has skill that improves AC10 and higher heat
    SUPPORT has skill that reduces AC5 and lower cooldown
    Connecting node/grid area equalizes bonuses for all AC types

    By advancing into LRM spread in this example you unlock target info gathering without having to spend points early in the Scout tree which opens up specialised preferences. While being fairly unique, you can see it as a combination of the League of Legends Mastery system and Path of Exile's character tree.

    These skill grids will then be available for ALL mechs of that class and only unlock their full potential on mechs once they have been mastered as well, like they have 50% reduced effectiveness or you can only advance to a certain ring when below the XP threshold. They can be set as a preference per mech. Each mech will have a different role to fulfill and therefore require different 'masteries' from the grid and this provides mech collectors with an actual benefit from mastering their mechs instead of having to start over and over and over again when mastering new mechs.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
  8. skribs

    skribs Min-Max Maniac

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    Blagg, it doesn't matter. Add your voice to the chorus!
     
  9. Blagg Zear

    Blagg Zear Star Lord

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    done! :)
     
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  10. Michael

    Michael Grand Poobah

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    That is some serious math! Thank you for doing the work for me. As a veteran player, ie: one of the first who saw the game in an alpha state, I can honestly say that I would be very hesitant to sink the time into the game. It's like climbing Everest without o2.
     
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  11. Blagg Zear

    Blagg Zear Star Lord

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    Always a pleasure.

    Some pros & cons of the new Skill System that i see:

    + Save CBills by not having to buy 3 Variants of the Chassis to "Master"
    + Encourage to Play best Variants & Boating Weapons - more competitive Experience on the battlefield
    + Mechs with few Hardpoints Types will save Skill Points for non-weapon Skills
    + Encourage to Pilot "older" Mechs again
    + Encourage Players to buy CBills for $ to skip the Grind, what helps MWO to survive a Bit longer

    - Mastering a Mech Costs CBills, that you need for new Mechs - increased Grinding Time
    - Refund of spent CBills and "historical" XP won't be enough to remaster all the Mastered Mechs
    - Respec is expensive (ie Meta Change)
    - Not so good Variants will mostly vanish from the battlefield (less diversity on the Battlefield)
    - Matches will mostly be Meta Battles & more frustrating for the Players (Grinding will be even harder/slower!)
    - have to invest Points into Skill Nodes you maybe Don't need, Just to unlock Nodes you need.
    - Balancing will be even more challenging. Increased gap between superior and inferior Mechs
    - the higher Grind Wall discourages Players with less Time/Pilot Skills to Play - Negative Impact on Player Base
     
  12. Shock

    Shock Patron of the Underdog Staff Member

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    I have significant concerns about this point. This system will give everyone the ability to "quirk" up mechs that previously had (and needed) none. As it stands on the PTS right now, I can give my KDK-3 reduced Jam chance, increased range, cooldown, and velocity for both UAC10s and UAC5s. on top of that, I can increase armor and structure significantly and still have enough points left to get a pretty decent mobility boost. I can do the same with other strong mechs like the Dire Wolf, Timber Wolf and Stormcrow.

    What is that going to do to game balance?
     
  13. skribs

    skribs Min-Max Maniac

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    1) If you buy more than 1 variant anyway, it costs more C-Bills.
    2) Less diversity, not a good thing
    3) This only helps boats
    4) Forcing me to grind again on my Mechs is what PGI calls "expansion content" and I call "extortion"
    5) Players are already buying Mech Packs. Is that business model not working for them?
     
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  14. Blagg Zear

    Blagg Zear Star Lord

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    Yeah it's a Matter of 'Point of View' to find reasonable Pros.

    There is more than meets the Eye -> Read the "General Balance Changes" section from the PTS Announcement Notes? It's all about significant Nerfs over component Health, ECM and TC1!


    There are more nerfs for Weapons!

     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2017
  15. skribs

    skribs Min-Max Maniac

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    While the two systems are designed to go live at the same time, for the most part I consider these unrelated, especially crit chance. It's just coincidental they go live at the same time.

    Some of the weapon changes are in the vein of "nerf things so people can use skills to buff them back to normal." It's just like losing out on all of the skills we have now, only to need to invest a lot to get the same speed tweak, cooling, and torso twisting we have by default now.
     
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  16. So, in a nutshell...?

    Quirks/skills shuffled a bit into a new system that will very likely be tougher to balance.

    Weapon nerfs.

    Equipment nerfs.

    Less cooling.

    More busy work (91 clicks in multiple branches >> switching a few modules).

    Nothing truly new added except for respec cost.

    More expensive, unless only using one variant of a mech maybe?

    Grind intensified.

    ...I was hoping to have a bit more to work with to sell some of the guys that quit to come back. I don't think a little skill tree customization is going to be enough.

    All I have now is "You can buy this amazing new skill tree for the low, low price of 9.1 million C-bills. Just wait, there is more. You can buy it again and again for all of your hundreds of mechs!!"


    I feel like I am totally missing the point. What is supposed to be the big draw to the new system? How does this make the game better. Is the skill customization going to improve game play? Where is the "COOL!, NEW!, FUN!, WOW!"? Where are the incentives to grind the bigger grind? An extra 2% cooldown and 3% velocity... woo hoo.


    PGI, if you just need money, let us know. We want this game to succeed. I bet a surprising amount of players would shell out for gold rotary autocannons or special colored X-pulse lasers or having unit logos be featured in a Solaris map. More warhorns please!



    (sorry got more ranty then I was intending, still love playing with big stompy mechs)
     
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  17. skribs

    skribs Min-Max Maniac

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    The biggest selling points I see are:

    1) Greater TTK, through nerfed weapons and armor quirks
    2) Greater customization, although cookie cutters will be a thing
    3) Removal of the Rule of 3

    Now, some of these could be done without the new skill system.

    The negatives are many, including the costs, the loss of game balance by screwing over most of the heavily quirked Mechs, among other things.
     
  18. Thibideau Osis

    Thibideau Osis Star Lord

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    Oh my, I will need about 1.14 Billion C-Bills.....
     
  19. skribs

    skribs Min-Max Maniac

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    How many modules do you have?
     
  20. Thibideau Osis

    Thibideau Osis Star Lord

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    Not anywhere near enough, I have about 400 million C-Bills but I prefer to use it buying Mechs. Got 143 Mechs and 24 empty Mechbays, thing is I got tons of crap Mechs from some of the packs that I would like just to retire.

    Seyla,
     
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