Opinion [FP] IS, please stop complaining clan ERLL has range supremacy

Thread in 'MechWarrior Online - General Discussion' started by CarloArmato, Oct 11, 2018.

  1. CarloArmato

    CarloArmato Professional Potato Carrier

    1,245
    383
    165
    ... because it isn't true anymore.

    This is an open letter / answer to all those that keep on saying in FP matches that clanners has better range.

    For those too lazy to read, with IS quirks and IS TC1, clanners no more out ranges IS mechs: on very long trades, even out of optimal range (850+ meters) are equal at the same range. Simply pick a mech capable of boating 5xERLL with a 10% energy range boost and you are good to go.

    You don't believe me?
    • cERLL: 11 damage, 740 meters (1480 maximum), 1.35s duration, 4s cooldown
    • ERLL: 9 damage, 675 meters (1350 maximum), 1.1s duration, 3.4s cooldown
    IS ERLL has lower range, but there are a lot of IS mechs (with even good hardpoint positions) which have a very nice +10% range boost, like Warhammer 6D.

    With +10% range quirk, it will become:
    • cERLL: 11 damage, 740 meters (1480 maximum), 1.35s duration
    • ERLL: 9 damage, 675+67.5=742 meters (1350+135=1485 maximum), 1.1s duration
    I can already hear someone scream "but cERLL can deal more damage with less tonnage!".
    Not necessarily.

    Let's take the most classic heavy clan ERLL boat, hellbringer:


    Now let's take my favorite IS heavy mech, warhammer 6D:


    Warhammer 6D can deal the same amount of damage in less time thanks to lower laser duration and I'm not even taking into account better maximum and sustained DPS or structure quirks for better overall tankiness and survivability (questionable due to IS XL, but still true if you manage to poke properly and spread damage)

    Clan assault mech can boat more ERLL compared to IS, so trading with them will very likely be harder if you can't manage to fire 2 times before clanners hide behind cover (very likely to happen due to at least forced +1s poke to avoid ghost heat: 2+2+2 ERLL). Anyway, range wise they are still equal to clanners provided you choose a mech with a huge TC or simply choosing a mech with +10% range quirk.

    To be fair, clan mech are still king of alpha strikes at medium ranges (~500 meters), but they are no more the uncontested kings of extreme range. Clan ERPPC is still way better compared to IS ERPPC due to total damage output, but IS heavies and assaults now have equale numbers to bring on the table, coupled with likely better tank, damage application (shorter duration) and maybe even better acceleration / deceleration for better pokes.

    Before dropping in FP, fit and choose only ERLL boats with +10% energy range quirk. That's what you need to close the gap between IS and clan at very long ranges.

    Foot note: I've purposedly ignored TC1 bonus because the difference is very negligible, +4% beam range vs 3.5% beam range boost. I've also ignore 15% range skill's boosts because bonuses stacks on each other and are equal on both sides (fully skilled TC1 5xERLL warhammer actually reaches 867 meters optimal range)
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  2. Tank the Frank

    Tank the Frank Benefactor

    99
    22
    22
    More of a general clan laser comment. It pisses me off that after I buy the new Warhammer IIC pack, PGI nerfs clan lasers. Again! Their vague comment to bring clan in line with IS doesn't make sense. Yes, clan lasers do more damage, but on average have longer duration and are hotter.ffs
     
    Tollas669 and CarloArmato like this.
  3. ShiverMeRivets

    ShiverMeRivets Active Member

    92
    24
    18
    And clan lasers have longer ranges. Only very few IS specific variants get a general 10% range quirk. Often it is weapon specific (e.g., 10% to medium lasers). So yes, in sniper wars you can pick those meta mechs with a range quirk, but otherwise clan laser builds mixing large and medium lasers will do more damage than similar IS builds at ranges beyond 350 or so.

    Clan lasers are hotter, but clan laser builds can carry a lot more heat sinks and generally end up with better heat dissipation than IS laser builds.

    Laser burn is longer on Clan, true, but so is the total damage. Damage/duration is not lower at all, so it is similar laser intensity, only lasting longer.

    Generally, this should not be a problem when one side specializes in lasers and the other in ballistics. But when you can boat 15 lasers on a 20 tonner, or 36+ srms on a 40 tonner, or get pin-point laser vomits in the 70s damage that will mess up anything under 60 ton in one burn, that is a bit too much.

    On the IS side I agree with those that say that dual heavy gauss is too much PPFLD.
     
    Excalibaard likes this.
  4. CarloArmato

    CarloArmato Professional Potato Carrier

    1,245
    383
    165
    And that is in the thread title: people in FP should not complain about clan range because they haven't fitted and chosen the right mech for the job. About quickplay or more casual builds I would say "git gud", because there are a lot of very powerful quirked builds, but it is undeniably true that the average player that builds a random build will probably end up building a better clan mech compared to a similar IS build.

    15 lasers on a Piranhas and 36+ srm on an artctic wolves IMHO are not an issue: they are both hot brawlers, which means they can only alpha strike once or twice (spreading damage unless you are very slow) and then roll out because they are too hot. I've tried both and they are not even close to be actually reliable in a sustained brawl: they are best used at backstabbing or as a quick punisher / finisher, with the great cons they need to get very close to be actually effective.
    EDIT: with the recent patch and DHS buffs it is very likely that they are going to be cooler, but so do the other already "sustainable" builds.

    If you and your team hold a good position and / or do not spread out, so you can help each other and cover multiple angles, or are simply able to chase / fire back even when they are running for cover, those high-alpha brawler mechs are a laughable joke.

    About the mid-range laser alpha you are right, but you can still win trades or spread damage more easily by moving from cover to cover or by simply firing earlier and moving to cover half-way the clanner is returning fire... It is way harder, but is manageable in the right circumstances and with proper coordination.

    Dual heavy gauss rifle is OP due to armor quirks and crit reduction quirks, but if anyone manages to sneak up on you or once you lose all the armor on a side torso, it is gonna blow up in no time (more than often you are basically playing without structure on that side because Heavy gauss is gonna explode earlier). With recent defensive quirks debuff, quad LBX10 is probably more reliable in the long run.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  5. Flappybits

    Flappybits New Member

    1
    0
    1
    I tire of seeing these kind of threads that seem so incredibly biased towards whatever side they are playing, clan or IS.

    OP, how are you going to make a comparison using +10% bonus range perks and not give the same benefit to Clan, which also have mechs with ranged perks which will equate to even bigger bonuses for clan due to a higher base range?

    IS can't compete with Clan at the ranged game, but Clan isn't nearly as weak vs IS in the same degree when it comes to brawling.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2018
  6. CarloArmato

    CarloArmato Professional Potato Carrier

    1,245
    383
    165
    Link me one viable clan build that mounts 4xERLL and with energy or ERLL quirk.
    Spoiler: there is none I can think of and the few that does have quirks, they have to keep the original omnipod set and deal with such bad hardpoints they need to overexpose thenselves when compared to a warhammer or a battlemaster...

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying clanners are UnderPowered compared to IS or viceversa, I'm simply stating the fact that in FP matches IS can deal with ERLL snipers if you drop with the right mech (but you have to build and choose it). That was the whole point of this thread.

    I also know well clanners have issues during brawls due to lower SRM alpha and higher heat (and lack of non-er lasers), but as always clanners must compensate with a bigger alpha or with better overall DPS (which is way IMHO the only true strong clan builds are dakka boats and laser vomit or gauss vomit when facing similar ranged foes).

    TBH, I overall don't like clan builds that much (higher jam chance, fixed engine, longer beam duration) and when facing such fully exploited IS builds, they tend to be weaker.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2018
  7. Remover of Obstacles

    Remover of Obstacles Star Lord

    998
    383
    169
    What quirks does the Hellbringer Hero (Virago) have now?
     
  8. CarloArmato

    CarloArmato Professional Potato Carrier

    1,245
    383
    165
    +10% ER laser range and 10% energy heat.
    Very interesting: it looks like PGI is keeping exceptional or peculiar builds only on heroes (e.g.: bushwacker high roller hasn't been hit by the armor nerf)

    It still is the only workable mech with said range quirks, most other mech can't poke as well as an hellbringer:
    • Night-Gyr C is too slow
    • Summoner D has very low arm hardpoints and c
    • Nova Cat A is quite slow and has quite low energy hardpoints
    There are also other medium or light mechs with rang quirks, but they can't fit 4xERLL and are better used with 2 or 3 ERLL at max.
     
  9. Remover of Obstacles

    Remover of Obstacles Star Lord

    998
    383
    169
    The Hellbringer hero does trade away the ECM for the full set quirks. I might prefer the ECM.

    Also, all Hellbringers are stuck on the light side of tonnage with a locked engine and without endo structure or ferro armor.
     
  10. CarloArmato

    CarloArmato Professional Potato Carrier

    1,245
    383
    165
    Sure, but ECM isn't really needed at 1000+ meters. 10% range is very welcome, it means if you are facing an identical weapon loadout or something that has the same damage and range, you can still win trades out of optimal range.
     

Share This Page